Occupation of neutral overseas territories by belligerents

[Alexander Seil]

EDIT: Scrap (partially) the original suggestion. New idea (from vertinox) -

Countries at war should be able to directly occupy neutral overseas territories with their own troops, triggering a dialog for the host as to whether the colonial forces should resist the occupation. Otherwise, works the same - perpetual control until hostilities cease, the occupier declares war on the host, or the host withdraws from the agreement. Whatever troops were in the territory at the time (or, possibly, designated by the occupier) stay in the colony for the duration (they may draw on the occupier's supply dumps, also).

The reason the above is different from the below is because having to send over troops significantly limit how this could be used - it precludes Japan from occupying Angola, for example, but still lets them occupy East Timor.



As in, countries at war should be able to press neutral countries to cede control of an overseas (contiguous) territory of choice, for the duration of the conflict.

This handles several issues -

Macao (occupied by Japan)
East Timor (occupied by Japan)
Vichy Indochina
Vichy Madagascar (didn't happen, but is an option in HoI2)

Plus other plausible scenarios which you can readily think of.

Optional stuff -

It would be neat if whatever garrison existed at the time in the territory (or perhaps some part of it chosen by the occupier) could be retained and restricted to moving with that territory only (possible in Rome already, with regional armies), in order to provide defense against any intrusion (again, Vichy Indochina situation). Of course, if the occupier chooses to go to war with his host, these troops would resist (with some chance) - this covers the collapse of French Indochina government in 1945.

 

[Easy Max]

I dont know. This strikes me as something that could be easily abused. Japan decides it needs some rares so it occupies those Malaysian territories from the UK. Now the UK either has to declare war or just ignore the loss of a precious overseas colony. I think a detailed event driven system, just like what existed in HOI 2 works perfectly here for historical situation. The modibility of savegame files works for those unhistorical ones.

 

[chridder]

Could it be just a diplomatic option?
Occupation could be an option beside declaring war... ?

Or alternativly, every country can occupy provinces, that are not core provinces of the current owner...

Maybe a little bit OT, but I found it annoying all the time, that I could not annex europe-part of netherlands, because they had their colonies I could not occupy as germany...

sounds not plausible for me, since in WW2 netherland was 100% under german control... wasn't it?
It should be pausible to annex partly... so, colonies and core country get devided!

 

[Battlecry]

sounds not plausible for me, since in WW2 netherland was 100% under german control... wasn't it?

No actually it wasn't. Neither was Belgium - their colonies continued on as before, with their respective governments conducting affairs from exile. They didn't really fight of course; at least not against Germany (Dutch ships & men fought the Japanese). However I do agree there should be something representing a partial annexation of this type, like the capitulation events in C.O.R.E.

 

[Earl Uhtred]

Could it be just a diplomatic option?
Occupation could be an option beside declaring war... ?

Or alternativly, every country can occupy provinces, that are not core provinces of the current owner...

Maybe a little bit OT, but I found it annoying all the time, that I could not annex europe-part of netherlands, because they had their colonies I could not occupy as germany...

sounds not plausible for me, since in WW2 netherland was 100% under german control... wasn't it?
It should be pausible to annex partly... so, colonies and core country get devided!

The problem was not that it was impossible to annex Belgium / the Netherlands, but that it WAS possible to annex metro France. Annexation doesn't mean what HoI2 makes it mean.

Another example of the OP's noted problem I can think of: Iceland / Greenland to the US. I have no idea how to make this work without allowing abuses, but anything has to be better than the inflexible 'blunt instrument' of an event-driven occupation.

 

[chridder]

... but anything has to be better than the inflexible 'blunt instrument' of an event-driven occupation.

Right.. so would it be a solution that you can occupy any province you like, as long as it is not a core province? ... maybe a third status is necessary here...
1) Core
2) Over my dead body! ... means.. "Come guy, declare war on me, if you really want this province... even it is no core"
3) No of 1) or 2) ... means "Just occupy it, it doesn't really matter..." (declaring war as answer to this agressive act is still possible...)

A little bit other names for the status might help... but just to get the sense of it...

Or other alternative... make the core value a percentage value... 100% means, real core province... everything below would reduce the risk, that you get in war, when occupying it... beside that, you can only occupy provinces w/o declaring war which have less than x% core value...

this also would have another benefit.. the core value can grow in time so that it becomes a real core sometimes.. whereby it doesn't really matter within in the time range of the game... but it could also increase / decrease event-driven... if there is any need for it

 

[unmerged(45464)]

I don't think that it would be a good idea. Indochina is already handed over to the Japanese via en event. Maybe the same could happen with Macao and East Timor, but being able to randomly claim provinces across the globe doesn't make any sense at all.

 

[Earl Uhtred]

I'm trying to find a common factor in all the above-mentioned cases and failing.

- Iceland / Greenland: relatively close but occupied minor colonial power, pre-emptive occupation by neutral US
- Macao, East Timor: remote, neutral mother country, 'force majeure' occupation by Japan at war
- Vichy Indochina, Madagascar: remote, puppet mother country in low-level civil war, colonial administration dragooned by Japan, then disposed of

It would be good if the AI had some concept of power projection and could understand when a colony is strategically hopeless and / or could choose to allow military access in certain theatres - so Japan could get access to Timor but not metro Portugal - or for that matter Goa (huge exploit that would be).

Stumped.

 

[chridder]

I think the question is, how a country will react if one of its provinces gets occupied, and not which Country shall be allowed to occupy which province... in general I think, each of the big nations were able to occupy provinces around the world.. but did not because it made no sense...

But, if a agressor will occupy a province it
- should give him a lot higher agressive factor (BadBoy),
- should make the relationship to all countries of the opposite politcal block (the one of the orgin owner of the province) much worser,
- could cause a DOW

as more the conquerer and the victim are of the same political orientation, maybe allied, same "culture", etc... so less the consequences are.. and so easier it is to occupy (assuming a percentage core value) ... means, USA has no/less consequences occupying Groenland...

 

[Krediax]

cant you just make military acces area driven, or even continent. so that japan could as military acces to portugal over the area china or continent Asia. etc

 

[vertinox]

I don't think that it would be a good idea. Indochina is already handed over to the Japanese via en event. Maybe the same could happen with Macao and East Timor, but being able to randomly claim provinces across the globe doesn't make any sense at all.

What if its another country besides Japan? The problem with events is that if only events cause this, then the player (and AI) is straight jacketed. The more diplomatic options the better.

 

[Radu]

Such a system can very be easily abused because it would be quite hard for the game to realize what would be an "acceptable" demand.

I think these instances should better be left to events.

 

[OHgamer]

Such a system can very be easily abused because it would be quite hard for the game to realize what would be an "acceptable" demand.

I think these instances should better be left to events.

Agreed.

Sometimes it's best to leave anomalous cases to be dealt with uniquely via event if conditions merit rather than try to find some grand unifying rule to tie a bunch of them together on a rather weak thread.

 

[Alexander Seil]

Agreed.

Sometimes it's best to leave anomalous cases to be dealt with uniquely via event if conditions merit rather than try to find some grand unifying rule to tie a bunch of them together on a rather weak thread.

Given that Vichy events (and many events besides) in HoI2 are largely broken after some 5-6 patches, I simply don't trust that line of reasoning. Not to mention that handing things over by events guarantees that they will never be given back - that aspect would be much easier to handle if a system existed that would merely guarantee control, rather than ownership, for the duration of the conflict.

Secondly, this could hardly be abused if the AI is not completely moronic. If it is, then Johan got bigger problem than implementing this feature.

EDIT: Actually, I believe Greenland/Iceland should be handled as before, by events. It is the Asian situation that seriously bothers me. Not to mention that the same thing could happen from the Allied side - why couldn't they occupy East Timor without asking Portugal?

Part of the problem, of course, is that you can't have military access tied to a specific region. If Japan gets access to Portugal they can base their fleets in the Azores, which is nonsense. This is another way to fix this problem - allow military access to be region-specific.

 

[vertinox]

Part of the problem, of course, is that you can't have military access tied to a specific region. If Japan gets access to Portugal they can base their fleets in the Azores, which is nonsense. This is another way to fix this problem - allow military access to be region-specific.

Maybe there could be a diplomatic option to demand military access and administration to a specific province/region?

Or better yet, why not resolved this with the issue of actually having to DoW nations to invade them?

You can simply start moving troops into other persons provinces and the nation on the bad end of the stick can choose either accept it or consider it an act of war.

And until they consider it an act of war, their forces won't be mobilized other than token resistances.

So that would resolve the issue of surprise attacks (like Operation Barbarossa) and then issues where nations just waltzed in without permission but the other nation didn't fight back since they weren't in a position to fight back.

 

[Alexander Seil]

Maybe there could be a diplomatic option to demand military access and administration to a specific province/region?

Or better yet, why not resolved this with the issue of actually having to DoW nations to invade them?

You can simply start moving troops into other persons provinces and the nation on the bad end of the stick can choose either accept it or consider it an act of war.

And until they consider it an act of war, their forces won't be mobilized other than token resistances.

So that would resolve the issue of surprise attacks (like Operation Barbarossa) and then issues were nations just waltzed in without permission but the other nation didn't fight back since they weren't in a position to fight back.

Japan did move troops into Indochina before Vichy even agreed to it, so I suppose that could be a better option (plus it would limit these things to territories you can actually reach).

 

[Earl Uhtred]

Nice (@ Vertinox). But I fear still too easy to exploit. What happens to units in provinces that are overrun? What reason would an aggressor ever have to declare war using this system?

 

[Alexander Seil]

Well, if you have to risk war, that's hardly an exploit, is it? You could still limit it to cases where the "invading" country is actually at war. COupled with the need to physically send over troops, it restricts the number of cases to consider significantly.

Besides, it would be nice if you came up with examples of how it could be exploited

EDIT: Naturally, the host country should be able to withdraw from the agreement at any time, triggering an aggressive response by its own troops in the colony.

 

[Radu]

Given that Vichy events (and many events besides) in HoI2 are largely broken after some 5-6 patches, I simply don't trust that line of reasoning. Not to mention that handing things over by events guarantees that they will never be given back - that aspect would be much easier to handle if a system existed that would merely guarantee control, rather than ownership, for the duration of the conflict.

Secondly, this could hardly be abused if the AI is not completely moronic. If it is, then Johan got bigger problem than implementing this feature.

EDIT: Actually, I believe Greenland/Iceland should be handled as before, by events. It is the Asian situation that seriously bothers me. Not to mention that the same thing could happen from the Allied side - why couldn't they occupy East Timor without asking Portugal?

Part of the problem, of course, is that you can't have military access tied to a specific region. If Japan gets access to Portugal they can base their fleets in the Azores, which is nonsense. This is another way to fix this problem - allow military access to be region-specific.

It's true that in HOI2 a good deal of events left things "hanging" with no proper resolution. But on the other hand that doesn't mean a proper event chain cannot solve the issues of neutral territories in the Pacific.

Again,the problem is the implementation of the game mechanism that decides "ok,you are now in a position to demand land from a neutral country". How would that look like? Would it need to search every single province/region to find a "neutral sandwitched between belligerents" pattern? How often would this search need to be re-run as part of refresh cycles? I don't even think that's possible mathematically, and even if it is we're looking at head-exploding maths in search of the said pattern and I'm saying this as a computer science student that graduates next year.

Fact is, the "search pattern for sandwitched neutral territories (even worse,islands)" requires considerable effort to implement.

But on the other hand the instances are particular enough so that events can be used to simulate this. Even proper triggers can be identified within the game engine as well. I mean, one could do this properly with the HOI2 engine, a EUIII-derived engine would fare even better.

What was wrong in HOI2 wasn't so much the use of events,IMO, as was insufficient/inadequate trigger conditions and things left "dangling" afterwards.

My 2 cents, proper event writing can yield better result with much less effort.

 

[Alexander Seil]

Trust me, it's possible mathematically, and is no more complicated than for the AI to decide which direction it wants to attack in.