Obsolescence of defense platform.

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Archael90

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Yep, and they were all useless back then because they had barely more firepower than a single battleship and had to fight 50 on 1..
Yes, but here you could build them more at one spot. And just like ships, they would need more capacity usage, like normal platform, having 2xL slot and taking 1 defence platform cap. Second tier would give 4xL slots, and take 2 def platf. cap, and third tier would allow for X slot weapons placements, and takes 4 points form cap. This woul be very helpfull.
More on that, those better platforms may be researchable with "eternal vigilance" ap if one thinks its too op.
 
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ubuntufreakdragon

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Some ideas:
a) Use minerals instead of alloys for the base platform.
b) Join all shields of platforms&starbase to one pool.
c) give platforms and ships a chance to cover behind the starbase redirecting the damage.
d) give platforms a chance to survive a knockout.
 
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Charybde

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Incorrect- the best way to support a fleet in combat is aura effects, which affect the effectiveness of the fleets. You could increase the fire rate of a fleet by 10% by building another 10% of ships at thousands of alloys, or you could build a 250 alloy Command Center. You could increase your first strike capacity by building more first strike vessels, or by building a 50 alloy communication jammer to slow enemy speed by 20% and emergency disengatement chance for more kills.


Auras are useless if star bases lack any staying power. I am not suggesting to make them as impregnable as fortress worlds, far from that, but yes a star base properly outfitted for combat should be able to hold a comparable or perhaps even slightly superior fleet in terms of power. This would allow for a more viable defensive playstyle focus while still requiring players to keep a (probably smaller) fleet for support as static defenses would not be invincible.


...and that's that point.

Fortress worlds are indeed a non-productive asset, which is why you almost never build them in the early game and only build them when you have the economic surpluses to afford a large, non-productive military expense. But they are a strategic investment worth pursuing precisely because they are almost impossible to take or bombard into submission, which requires the enemy significant time to to do. Time to move, or rebuild, your fleet after a loss that led to the point where you are being attacked, rather than the attacker.

And that's my problem with them. The multi-year siege affair you are refer too later in your post is already present in the game. They are just too difficult to take unless you are willing to spend years and thousands upon thousands of soldiers to take them. They counter fleet power in the air AND on forces the ground. I don't think planets should be usable as such, not to that level.


And this last point is the key one, because to insist that starbases should be able to fill the same stall roll without fleet support begs the question of what you expect them to do when they have fleet support. Is seiging a starbase supposed to be a multi-year affair? Why?

Again because it would allow those who would wish to focus more on static defenses rather then a bigger offensive force (Pacifists for example) to have a viable alternative (and in the case of pacifists become more viable themselves).

You can build star bases. Planets such as they are, are a rare commodity. In my view this would open up alternative paths of competitive play, rather than the mandatory: build the biggest fleet you can and crush all opposition.

Alternatively, you just don't understand how to effectively use the strategic tools available to you.

On the contrary, I do. Fortress worlds have TOO MUCH staying power. It's a bad mechanic in my opinion and should be ether changed or removed. Star bases could fill a similar role (albeit maybe not to the same extent) and represent a significant investments in terms of resources and upkeep while also representing an opportunity cost in term of offensive capability (perhaps by unifying fleet and star base capacity under one single mechanic that would require you to make more strategic choices).

That is the goal. All the suggestions made in this thread aim to open up possibilities, to make more than one path viable towards victory. Why couldn't a more pacific rout be competitive, for example? You may agree or disagree with those suggestions. But considering the direction in which 3.3 takes us with changes like unity cost and sprawl becoming somewhat relevant again, I believe that the development team has similar objectives.
 
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HFY

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Auras are useless if star bases lack any staying power.

If you have a sufficiently strong fleet in the system, then the aura doesn't need any staying power.

It just helps your fleet win, or makes the enemy's losses stick harder -- which leads to you winning by attrition. (My favorite aura is Comm Jammer.)
 

Charybde

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If you have a sufficiently strong fleet in the system, then the aura doesn't need any staying power.

It just helps your fleet win, or makes the enemy's losses stick harder -- which leads to you winning by attrition. (My favorite aura is Comm Jammer.)
That is indeed if you have a sufficient fleet in the system at the time of the assault. if you don't, not only do you loose that system, but should it have time to repair before your fleet arrives, your investment will work against you. That's not how static defenses are supposed to work. You don't always know who will attack you and from where. If you follow a more defensive strategy as I suggested in my previous post, you might not be able to afford as many ships. Therefore static defenses exists to stall the enemy until reinforcements arrive. If they don't or are not ready in time, then they fall. I know that is not how they work currently, but in my opinion it should be. That's how they usually do. I do understand that you probably speak from the perspective of multiplayer competitive meta, where fleets are ready and in position and the superior fleet simply assaults the weaker one, but my whole point was to look at things from a larger perspective. Changing how star bases and fortress worlds work would open up alternate strategies or make existing ones more viable. Because as things are, combat star bases are hardly worth building at all past the early game and fortress worlds can hold entire armadas for years on end by themselves with no direct way to counter them. Hence the point of asking people to share their suggestions.
 
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Charybde

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The thing about starbase and defense platforms, conceptually, is that they are really you pouring dump-truck loads of resources in to standing still.

I think mechanically the biggest problems with starbases are that they have few guns for their overall fleet cap size, a 50k citadel has like two dozen turrets. 50ks worth of Corvettes has substantially more turrets - even after a large chunk of them have been wiped out.
  • Defense platforms do solve this issue, bringing more guns to the table.
  • But they are destroyable and rarely last a whole battle.
  • And there's the rebuilding micro issue.

This pressure from tonnes of fleet guns focussing on a single target (the starbase) will usually wipe out shields fairly fast, leaving just armor and hull, which is little more than a waiting game (and XL/disruptors later in the game make this child's play to burn through).

In my mind starbases need 4 things
  • D-platforms are disabled rather than killed, the occupier can't repair them, only the original owner [or new owner after war] (e.g. repaired via constructors right-clicking and pressing repair defenses on a starbase, giving them some purpose in mid/late game).
  • Increase starbase survivability + reduce the number of "effective" enemy fleet guns.
    • There is a +/-starbase_damage modifier that is (to my knowledge) currently unused.
    • Slap -90% damage on small ships, -60%damage on cruisers and battleships (no modifiers on titans and up).
    • Add +x% ship starbase damage to titanic gun modules, missiles and bomber modules (and all crisis faction ships).
    • So now you can whittle away at a starbase but without using dedicated hardware it'll probably not go in your favour.
    • Increase base starbase stats at each tier.
  • Improve starbase offensive scaling.
    • Add a few new starbase building modules like Hangar bay 2, with double the fighters launched, or
    • missile turrets 2 - with more guns (or at least +100% fire rate on those same guns).
    • You can also have more interesting modules. For example. I've tested a capacitor script that will refill starbase shields to 100% once per battle (it checks every 7 days in combat, for when shields <1sp, then stops checking after refilling in that battle).
  • Buff ion cannons to deal AOE damage on-kill
    • I've done this with a combat script and it works amazingly.
    • Late game starbases with ion cannons can wipe huge chunks of Corvettes and destroyers from enemy fleets as they materialise at the hyperspace point.
    • The ion cannon will deal 40% of upfront damage to all surrounding ships in x1 units(roughly a battleship's length, unmodded), and 20% in x2 units from the target ship - it does have to land the killing blow for this to work, though that's not a big issue for ion guns.
I'd also add that I think pacifists should be able to build a second/super starbase, as a megastructure/orbital station (think about the massive starbases in sins of a solar empire). Their whole schtick is not being offensive, but the galaxy is a dangerous place, it makes sense to build a big immobile gun to protect yourself, atleast.

This would all help them stay relevant up to the late game. But the sheer weight of ships you can bring to bear means that starbases probably won't be relevant in the very late game without also reducing the overall number of ships most empires can field. E.g. by reducing fleet cap*, or increasing fleet cap costs per ship. This would also have performance advantages (less to pathfind), but that's verging on a topic for another thread.

* One idea I've thought of trying, is tying fleet capacity multipliers to admiral levels, so having a bunch of high ranking admirals would be super important for a big fleet.
I really like those ideas.
 

HFY

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That is indeed if you have a sufficient fleet in the system at the time of the assault. if you don't, not only do you loose that system, but should it have time to repair before your fleet arrives, your investment will work against you. That's not how static defenses are supposed to work.

Yeah, the static auras should be yours alone until the end of the war.

When you move to re-take the system, your auras should not work against you.

If the system changes hands after the war, your former static defenses should not be usable by the conqueror -- he should need to rebuild them.
 
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GOLANX

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Everyone always says starbases are a speedbump, for low level starbases/outposts that should be true. Higher level starbases should be a stop sign, a few months delay. A High level Bastion should be a stoplight, defeating weaker fleets and slowing advance down by years, taking a toll of attrition while it's at it.

Fortress Worlds shouldn't grind advance to a halt, the bonuses provided should cap out, the planet should be blockaded, unable to access the resources of its empire, if not self sufficient it can quickly break down into anarchy as soldiers fight amongst themselves for a loaf of bread. The purpose of a Fortress world should be to provide the infrastructure for a larger Navy and Army (such as it is). And be resilient due to the ready access to combatants not because the Fortress buildings stuck all the pops and infrastructure underground impervious to bunker busters.
 
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Jman5

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They need to slowly repopulate over time. Otherwise it's just a massive resource sink compared to ships. Ships have evasion and a good chance to retreat before being destroyed. Defense platforms have zero evasion and no retreat. Even when you win a battle, it's common to lose more money in dead platforms than your opponent lost in dead ships.

Also as was said earlier, it's a huge pain in the butt to rebuild them after every fight.
 
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Charybde

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Everyone always says star bases are a speedbump, for low level starbases/outposts that should be true. Higher level starbases should be a stop sign, a few months delay. A High level Bastion should be a stoplight, defeating weaker fleets and slowing advance down by years, taking a toll of attrition while it's at it.

Fortress Worlds shouldn't grind advance to a halt, the bonuses provided should cap out, the planet should be blockaded, unable to access the resources of its empire, if not self sufficient it can quickly break down into anarchy as soldiers fight amongst themselves for a loaf of bread. The purpose of a Fortress world should be to provide the infrastructure for a larger Navy and Army (such as it is). And be resilient due to the ready access to combatants not because the Fortress buildings stuck all the pops and infrastructure underground impervious to bunker busters.

That's the role I think star bases should play as well. From a roleplay perspective I agree, it makes no sense that fortress world act as they do. However that's not the main issue. They've been designed this way for a single purpose: to prevent immediate capitulation once a player had lost their initial fleet and give said player time to rebuild and fight another day, as it was previously mentioned. When stellaris came out, multiplayer games were over far too quickly. However it's still a design crutch: it forces players to play only one way. Build lots of ships and the bigger fleets win... except that the stopping power of this one element in the game is so overwhelmingly strong that it almost renders that victory meaningless. They can literally stack thousands upon thousands worth of army power unto these worlds. If the defending player has been blessed with a well placed fortress world location (or is a void dweller) that's it, very little you can do. You are forced into an inevitable stalemate, which is never good. If he/she was not, then they don't have any other means to mount an effective defense. Static defensive measures are relegated to a support role and an entire ethos (pacifism) is almost never played competitively except for flavor only. That's the main problem in my opinion. Star bases if done correctly have the potential of both solving the "being defeated in a single battle" problem and at the same time open up new possibilities for a different military strategy without being overly detrimental.
 
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HFY

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The closest I've seen to a "high level" multi-month delay is a Fortress Habitat.

I guess that's an answer: at a certain size, make a Starbase also work as a Habitat, so the enemy has to invade it to shut down the FTL blocker.

Seems clonky, but it does fit the existing mechanics.
 
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DeanTheDull

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Auras are useless if star bases lack any staying power. I am not suggesting to make them as impregnable as fortress worlds, far from that, but yes a star base properly outfitted for combat should be able to hold a comparable or perhaps even slightly superior fleet in terms of power. This would allow for a more viable defensive playstyle focus while still requiring players to keep a (probably smaller) fleet for support as static defenses would not be invincible.

It wouldn't, because equivalent fleet power fights largely stop happening after the early game, ie the period where starbases are viable.

As snowballing kicks in and starbase/tech boosts fleet capacity, empire fleet strength potential starts to differ widely, and the nature of the Stellaris snowball is that stealing more resources lets you afford more alloys for larger fleets and more tech for more efficient fleets.

And that's my problem with them. The multi-year siege affair you are refer too later in your post is already present in the game. They are just too difficult to take unless you are willing to spend years and thousands upon thousands of soldiers to take them.
Why is this a problem for a defender, or on a game-level perspective from restricting military snowballing?

The alternative to being able to stall invaders for years and/or costing them thousands of resources would be to not be able to stall invaders for years and/or costing them thousands of resources. Which would mean faster and cheaper conquests, letting non-pacifists grow even faster relative to pacifist-defender archetypes.

Is defensive play too strong, or too weak? Because this is an objection that it's too strong.

They counter fleet power in the air AND on forces the ground. I don't think planets should be usable as such, not to that level.

Why not? You complained that it was an unreasonably costly investment that no one would use to give up a productive planet, but now you're claiming it's too good. Which is it?

Moreover, if planets can't be what stalls fleets for years, why should anything?


Again because it would allow those who would wish to focus more on static defenses rather then a bigger offensive force (Pacifists for example) to have a viable alternative (and in the case of pacifists become more viable themselves).

People who want static defenses already have a viable alternative for stalling the enemy- that option is fortress worlds and habitats.

You can build star bases. Planets such as they are, are a rare commodity. In my view this would open up alternative paths of competitive play, rather than the mandatory: build the biggest fleet you can and crush all opposition.

Your stated views are self-contradictory, and neither address habitats, which can be placed wherever the player would like to place a defensive chokepoint, or address how expansionist empires would be the best placed to exploit defensive starbases in competitive play, being able to afford more and more investments into them.

On the contrary, I do. Fortress worlds have TOO MUCH staying power. It's a bad mechanic in my opinion and should be ether changed or removed. Star bases could fill a similar role (albeit maybe not to the same extent) and represent a significant investments in terms of resources and upkeep while also representing an opportunity cost in term of offensive capability (perhaps by unifying fleet and star base capacity under one single mechanic that would require you to make more strategic choices).

You're not justifying your opinion on mechanical grounds, or explaining why your alternative would be better. Be specific. To start, how long should an enemy fleet be able to be stalled by a starbase that is unsupported by a fleet? 1 week? 1 month? 1 year? 1 decade?





That is the goal. All the suggestions made in this thread aim to open up possibilities, to make more than one path viable towards victory. Why couldn't a more pacific rout be competitive, for example?

Because in any competitive mechanical analysis, Stellaris is a 4X economy game based on pops, and the best way to expand your resources is competing for the other party's pops, not your own. If you fight to not lose your own pops, your economy and ability to sustain growth is at best maintained; if you fight to acquire other peoples pops, your economy base can expand.

Any analysis that fails to understand why pops are the base of the game economy is fundamentally flawed in its proposals.

You may agree or disagree with those suggestions. But considering the direction in which 3.3 takes us with changes like unity cost and sprawl becoming somewhat relevant again, I believe that the development team has similar objectives.
Maybe, but your proposals are counter to those objectives.

Giving wide empires even greater advantages over smaller empires- as they will have more starbase and economic capacity to spare for chokepoint starbases that can't be breached- does the opposite of favoring a defensive strategy- it favors early expansion most, before the defenses can be made overwhelming, and then then cements those gains against counter-attack. Any defense system which is justified on grounds of 'and it's better the more resources you throw' is going to favor the side with more resources to throw, which is wide, not tall.

This is especially true if you negate the use of fortress worlds. In the current model, starbases stop being lynchpines but fortress worlds are an opportunity cost- they are worlds that could be economic productive, and the wider your empire is, the more worlds you likely need to dedicate into fortress worlds to protect access to your core. If fortress worlds can't stall, but starbases can, then those wider empries can just rely on their superior number of starbases for stall, and dedicate those worlds to economic productivity- meaning even more resources than a tall-turtle empire, which means more alloys, more science, and faster traditions for even greater economic scale and efficiency.
 

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Ion cannons are essentially stationary titans; it seems weird that ion cannons don't get unique aura slots like titans do. It might be cool to add debuffs that stacked with those of starbases, titans, and juggernauts. Thus, with fleet support, you could have a system with something along the lines of massively debuffed enemy ship speed, weapons range, and shields, for example. It might also be interesting to have a defense against jump drives once jump drive tech is researched. Perhaps ion cannons could have an aura slot (or an alternative T-slot item) that provides a circular range around it similar to that of jump drives that protects friendly systems from jumping enemy fleets and instead forces them into the system with the jump drive snare (or shows the system as the only valid option for a jump).
 

methegrate

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I kind of wish Defence Platforms worked like additional modules to a starbase. They shouldn’t be destroyed, but just add their firepower and health to the status of the starbase.

I'd have them get knocked out, but not destroyed. Having to rebuild the damn things every time a starbase gets attacked is definitely why I don't build them.

But I think the reason why they put platforms in was to solve the opposite problem. A single starbase firing on a group of ships keeps its same firepower through the entire fight, while a fleet's firepower gets whittled away with each ship it loses. So they put in platforms as basically stationary fleets. (Of course if I'm misremembering that, someone please correct me.) So if they just become sort of super-modules, we might be right back where we started.
 
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It wouldn't, because equivalent fleet power fights largely stop happening after the early game, ie the period where starbases are viable.

As snowballing kicks in and starbase/tech boosts fleet capacity, empire fleet strength potential starts to differ widely, and the nature of the Stellaris snowball is that stealing more resources lets you afford more alloys for larger fleets and more tech for more efficient fleets.


Why is this a problem for a defender, or on a game-level perspective from restricting military snowballing?

The alternative to being able to stall invaders for years and/or costing them thousands of resources would be to not be able to stall invaders for years and/or costing them thousands of resources. Which would mean faster and cheaper conquests, letting non-pacifists grow even faster relative to pacifist-defender archetypes.

Is defensive play too strong, or too weak? Because this is an objection that it's too strong.



Why not? You complained that it was an unreasonably costly investment that no one would use to give up a productive planet, but now you're claiming it's too good. Which is it?

Moreover, if planets can't be what stalls fleets for years, why should anything?




People who want static defenses already have a viable alternative for stalling the enemy- that option is fortress worlds and habitats.



Your stated views are self-contradictory, and neither address habitats, which can be placed wherever the player would like to place a defensive chokepoint, or address how expansionist empires would be the best placed to exploit defensive starbases in competitive play, being able to afford more and more investments into them.



You're not justifying your opinion on mechanical grounds, or explaining why your alternative would be better. Be specific. To start, how long should an enemy fleet be able to be stalled by a starbase that is unsupported by a fleet? 1 week? 1 month? 1 year? 1 decade?







Because in any competitive mechanical analysis, Stellaris is a 4X economy game based on pops, and the best way to expand your resources is competing for the other party's pops, not your own. If you fight to not lose your own pops, your economy and ability to sustain growth is at best maintained; if you fight to acquire other peoples pops, your economy base can expand.

Any analysis that fails to understand why pops are the base of the game economy is fundamentally flawed in its proposals.


Maybe, but your proposals are counter to those objectives.

Giving wide empires even greater advantages over smaller empires- as they will have more starbase and economic capacity to spare for chokepoint starbases that can't be breached- does the opposite of favoring a defensive strategy- it favors early expansion most, before the defenses can be made overwhelming, and then then cements those gains against counter-attack. Any defense system which is justified on grounds of 'and it's better the more resources you throw' is going to favor the side with more resources to throw, which is wide, not tall.

This is especially true if you negate the use of fortress worlds. In the current model, starbases stop being lynchpines but fortress worlds are an opportunity cost- they are worlds that could be economic productive, and the wider your empire is, the more worlds you likely need to dedicate into fortress worlds to protect access to your core. If fortress worlds can't stall, but starbases can, then those wider empries can just rely on their superior number of starbases for stall, and dedicate those worlds to economic productivity- meaning even more resources than a tall-turtle empire, which means more alloys, more science, and faster traditions for even greater economic scale and efficiency.

You'll forgive me for not answering point by point again as it makes these posts quite long. Nevertheless in accordance with your request, I will attempt to develop my idea further. Nobody wants game state to return to a situation where the fate of entire empires is decided in single fleet engagements with little or no chance of recovery. In this I think we all agree. Thus some stalling is required and that is currently the purpose of fortress worlds. My main contention point is that they are a rubber band mechanic to a larger problem and favor staleness in reducing the number of viable ways people can actually play the game :

1. At the cost of building a generator, a fortress and either more fortresses or armies (which cost only minerals) on a planet or 1500 alloys base cost on a habitat, you can effectively shut down entire fleets. Put enough soldiers on those worlds and you can do so almost indefinitely, barring the use of a Colossus weapon. Even in the event that your enemy brought soldiers to match, it might take them several years to finally take it down. Presented like that, the opportunity cost of a planet/habitat does not seem that high at least for empires who are at least moderately large enough to sustain them.

2. They can do all that almost independently without requiring any additional support or investment on your part, making you almost impregnable in case of a loss. No amount of static defense should allow that, at least not without severely limiting your capabilities in terms of fleet power. Also not everyone will have access to an ideally situated world, giving void dwellers an immense advantage over other origin types.

3. They counter everything and have no direct counter for most of the game.

Having said that here is what I propose: fleet and star base capacity should be united under one mechanic we could call "military capacity". Ships would cost command points and count towards your military capacity and so would combat modules on star bases. Static defenses would be customizable and have specific technologies dedicated to their improvement and all modules would contribute to the overall structure, meaning their offensive power would last more than mere seconds. Each weapon module could represent the respective power of comparable ship "frames". You would not have as many modules "firing" as the enemy has ships but they would scale in a similar fashion. The "unyielding/prosperity" and "supremacy/domination" traditions would become mutually exclusive, forcing players to make a choice. Either you choose to focus your industry and research on developing and defending your own territory and play a more peaceful route or, you take a more offensive route and prioritize ship building. It makes logical sense not to be able to prioritize both doctrines at once.

Now here is the main point: whatever route you choose should NOT be able to completely negate the other on it's own, as fortress worlds do now. Static defenses without supporting fleets should eventually fall and big fleets would require logistical support in the form of star bases if only to repair/"refuel". You should NOT be able to use the enemy structures (especially combat ones) captured during a war. You destroyed them... they should remain destroyed. Friendly ones should require a significant amount of time and some resources to repair if they were retaken. Players choosing to focus on structures will have access to better star bases but not the best ship models and vice versa. Both would be competitive.

I understand that this would completely change how the game works now and that it's not an exhaustive list. But I completely disagree that Stellaris is just a 4x game and the best way to gain pops is always to expand without counter-balance. It has the potential of being much more than that. Your point is only valid at the present because there is very little downside to massive conquest and integration of subjugated pops is static. It should be the other way around: conquering population SHOULD cost you and be a long term investment strategy. A significant amount of pops should die in the bombardments/assault, "clean" wars are a myth. Peaceful societies are more cohesive, more prosperous and they often grow faster then war torn ones. You are right to say it's all about population though.

These are my ideas for improvement. I know the scope of this post has exceeded the original stated objective, but I hope everything said was clear.

methegrate said:
I'd have them get knocked out, but not destroyed. Having to rebuild the damn things every time a starbase gets attacked is definitely why I don't build them.

But I think the reason why they put platforms in was to solve the opposite problem. A single starbase firing on a group of ships keeps its same firepower through the entire fight, while a fleet's firepower gets whittled away with each ship it loses. So they put in platforms as basically stationary fleets. (Of course if I'm misremembering that, someone please correct me.) So if they just become sort of super-modules, we might be right back where we started.

I agree. At most they should be disabled as the star base is progressively damaged, similar to how ships are progressively destroyed. "Aura" type modules should not be until the entire star base is destroyed though, just like now. You basically stated the point I was about to make, as I was writing my next post.


MrGuyPerson said:
Ion cannons are essentially stationary titans; it seems weird that ion cannons don't get unique aura slots like titans do. It might be cool to add debuffs that stacked with those of starbases, titans, and juggernauts. Thus, with fleet support, you could have a system with something along the lines of massively debuffed enemy ship speed, weapons range, and shields, for example. It might also be interesting to have a defense against jump drives once jump drive tech is researched. Perhaps ion cannons could have an aura slot (or an alternative T-slot item) that provides a circular range around it similar to that of jump drives that protects friendly systems from jumping enemy fleets and instead forces them into the system with the jump drive snare (or shows the system as the only valid option for a jump).
That's an interesting idea. How would you balance it?
 
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You'll forgive me for not answering point by point again as it makes these posts quite long. Nevertheless in accordance with your request, I will attempt to develop my idea further. Nobody wants game state to return to a situation where the fate of entire empires is decided in single fleet engagements with little or no chance of recovery. In this I think we all agree. Thus some stalling is required and that is currently the purpose of fortress worlds. My main contention point is that they are a rubber band mechanic to a larger problem and favor staleness in reducing the number of viable ways people can actually play the game :

1. At the cost of building a generator, a fortress and either more fortresses or armies (which cost only minerals) on a planet or 1500 alloys base cost on a habitat, you can effectively shut down entire fleets. Put enough soldiers on those worlds and you can do so almost indefinitely, barring the use of a Colossus weapon. Even in the event that your enemy brought soldiers to match, it might take them several years to finally take it down. Presented like that, the opportunity cost of a planet/habitat does not seem that high at least for empires who are at least moderately large enough to sustain them.

2. They can do all that almost independently without requiring any additional support or investment on your part, making you almost impregnable in case of a loss. No amount of static defense should allow that, at least not without severely limiting your capabilities in terms of fleet power. Also not everyone will have access to an ideally situated world, giving void dwellers an immense advantage over other origin types.

3. They counter everything and have no direct counter.

Having said that here is what I propose: fleet and star base capacity should be united under one mechanic we could call "military capacity". Ships would cost command points and count towards your military capacity and so would combat modules on star bases. Static defenses would be customizable and have specific technologies dedicated to their improvement and all modules would contribute to the overall structure, meaning their offensive power would last more than mere seconds. Each weapon module could represent the respective power of comparable ship "frames". You would not have as many modules "firing" as the enemy has ships but they would scale in a similar fashion. The "unyielding/prosperity" and "supremacy/domination" traditions would become mutually exclusive, forcing players to make a choice. Either you choose to focus your industry and research on developing and defending your own territory and play a more peaceful route or, you take a more offensive route and prioritize ship building. It makes logical sense not to be able to prioritize both doctrines at once.

Now here is the main point: whatever route you choose should NOT be able to completely negate the other on it's own, as fortress worlds do now. Static defenses without supporting fleets should eventually fall and big fleets would require logistical support in the form of star bases if only to repair/"refuel". You should NOT be able to use the enemy structures (especially combat ones) captured during a war. You destroyed them... they should remain destroyed. Friendly ones should require a significant amount of time and some resources to repair if they were retaken. Players choosing to focus on structures will have access to better star bases but not the best ship models and vice versa. Both would be competitive.

I understand that this would completely change how the game works now and that it's not an exhaustive list. But I completely disagree that Stellaris is just a 4x game and the best way to gain pops is always to expand without counter-balance. It has the potential of being much more than that. Your point is only valid at the present because there is very little downside to massive conquest and integration of subjugated pops is static. It should be the other way around: conquering population SHOULD cost you and be a long term investment strategy. A significant amount of pops should die in the bombardments/assault, "clean" wars are a myth. Peaceful societies are more cohesive, more prosperous and they often grow faster then war torn ones. You are right to say it's all about population though.

These are my ideas for improvement. I know the scope of this post has exceeded the original stated objective, but I hope everything said was clear.



I agree. At most they should be disabled as the star base is progressively damaged, similar to how ships are progressively destroyed. "Aura" type modules should not be until the entire star base is destroyed though, just like now. You basically stated the point I was about to make, as I was writing my next post.



That's an interesting idea. How would you balance it?
I'm not sold on military capacity, defense turret vs military unit is always a tricky balance that even games like starcraft regularly get wrong, and I don't think Paradox would be any better (no offense). Mobility is a pretty huge benefit, immobile static defenses regularly will never see action while warships will almost always see action, if the 2 are otherwise the same you'll always pick the mobile unit. We do need to make sure they get Survivability and are modifiable to meet their unique needs. In particular they should always have alpha strike, just making sure they get passive bonuses to range, accuracy, and survival stats will be great benefits. Just making Supremacy and Unyielding mutually exclusive will be good.

I agree on captured starbases but would suggest the ability to run a science ship up and do a special Project to reactivate it based on codebreaking/encryption all starbases should need a construction ship for repair (yay more things for them to do). You can do an operation to steal the enemies starbase codes and reactivate them more quickly, and they can perform an operation to change their codes and make their bases harder to capture. Sabatoge Starbase will now disable a starbase via this method requiring a science vessel to complete the project to reactivate. Enigmatic Engineering will prevent the ability to reactivate starbases, at the conclusion of a war they will always downgrade to an outpost. Sorry I've thought about this idea a lot.

Fortress worlds should have a cap on bombardment reduction. Fill a planet with enough military bases and hitting a Civilian target will become hard. I also think bombardment/devastation in general should result in ruining buildings, with selective bombardment that only applies to military buildings, you will be reducing their effect on your Bombardment. Defense armies should not be created instantly or disbanded instantly by loss of soldier job via Bombardment. Defense armies will be added and get stronger over time, last minute preparation shouldn't work out very well.
 
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I agree on captured starbases but would suggest the ability to run a science ship up and do a special Project to reactivate it based on codebreaking/encryption all starbases should need a construction ship for repair (yay more things for them to do). You can do an operation to steal the enemies starbase codes and reactivate them more quickly, and they can perform an operation to change their codes and make their bases harder to capture. Sabatoge Starbase will now disable a starbase via this method requiring a science vessel to complete the project to reactivate. Enigmatic Engineering will prevent the ability to reactivate starbases, at the conclusion of a war they will always downgrade to an outpost. Sorry I've thought about this idea a lot.

These are great.

Seconded.
 

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Yeah - defense platforms can be compared with corvettes.
Using them in lategame is like using an all corvette fleet, while everyone roams around with battleships and titans. The exception is that there is no survivors from retreat.
 

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Yeah - defense platforms can be compared with corvettes.
Using them in lategame is like using an all corvette fleet, while everyone roams around with battleships and titans. The exception is that there is no survivors from retreat.
Except torpedo corvettes melt battleship and titan like paper (except carrier battleship ofc) so that comparison doesn't seem right to me.
 

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Even now I would gladly spam 10's of ion cannons, if only they took reasonable amount of time to build.

I mean they don't even seem to scale with Fortress proclamation edict, never mind megashipyard, or god forbid build more than one at a time.

Also, for now there should be a midgame tech saying "starbases and defence platforms have +50% firing range".
 
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