Obsolescence of defense platform.

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Charybde

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Hello,

I noticed that defense platforms are decent early game but become obsolete quickly. They keep a single frame for the entire game and thus get blown up in seconds by bigger, more advanced ship. There is no real evolution of actual platform defense. As an example a 50k equivalent fleet power star base should be able to hold a candle to a similar strength attacking fleet but it does not. Couldn't we have progressively "bigger hulls" platforms, as ships get bigger?
 
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Askorti

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There used to be three levels of defense platforms, back in the day when you built them freely and not on a station. Some mods even bring them back, which makes turtling up more involved and viable.

And I agree that it would be very nice if they were brought back.
 
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GloatingSwine

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There used to be three levels of defense platforms, back in the day when you built them freely and not on a station. Some mods even bring them back, which makes turtling up more involved and viable.

And I agree that it would be very nice if they were brought back.

Yep, and they were all useless back then because they had barely more firepower than a single battleship and had to fight 50 on 1..
 
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Cat_Fuzz

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I kind of wish Defence Platforms worked like additional modules to a starbase. They shouldn’t be destroyed, but just add their firepower and health to the status of the starbase.
 
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Askorti

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Yep, and they were all useless back then because they had barely more firepower than a single battleship and had to fight 50 on 1..
That is not entirely true. I still remember building 10+ fortresses in one start system at the edges to slow down enemy advance and give my fleet time to intercept. Sure, trhey wont necessarily stop the enemy on their own, but they were still useful. Also, back then there were no titans and damage output of fleets wasn't as high as it is these days.
 
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GloatingSwine

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That is not entirely true. I still remember building 10+ fortresses in one start system at the edges to slow down enemy advance and give my fleet time to intercept. Sure, trhey wont necessarily stop the enemy on their own, but they were still useful. Also, back then there were no titans and damage output of fleets wasn't as high as it is these days.

Yeah, but they had a minimum placement range which was way longer than weapon ranges back then, so an enemy fleet would only ever have to fight one, max two of them at a time and eliminate it without damage.
 

Charybde

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Thanks guys I see I am not the only one thinking this. I suppose the next question is, how would you change the current system. The Unyielding tradition tree may be a step in the right direction, but how to make mid to late game static defense a viable strategy and balancing it in such a way that star bases and platform building remain relevant throughout the game without completely de-incentivize players to actually go on the offensive. Increasing upkeep? Integrating different modules to actual star base hull? I'd like to hear your ideas.
 

GloatingSwine

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Thanks guys I see I am not the only one thinking this. I suppose the next question is, how would you change the current system.

Nerf damage (all damage everywhere ever not for platforms), give platforms a pseudo-disengage chance, vastly reduce their upkeep and give them additional hull reinforcement techs which also give them bonuses to armour and shields.

The thing that makes defence platforms obsolete late game is the same that makes everything else except battleships and a few ablative corvettes obsolete. XL weapons and Neutron Launchers kill everything in one salvo and there is no meaningful defence against them other than extreme levels of evasion and even then you can easily get enough tracking and additional to-hit to have a one in five chance of a hit which deletes the target anyway.

For a start I'd increase defence values across the board, eg. instead of starting at 300 and ending at 500 I'd have corvettes start at 500 hull and end at 1000, and the sizes go up from there (so battleships would go from 4000-8000).

Defence platforms would start at 1000 and have four hull upgrades of 750 to eventually end up at 4000 hull, the top two would also add +25% to armour and shield values each.

Scale all weapons' damage down by a factor of about 25% but scale XL weapons down by about 200% (so to about 35-40% of their current power), and remove Proton/Neutron Launchers entirely. (Reinvent kinetic artillery as a kinetic equivalent to plasma available at medium and large sizes). No weapons should ignore defence layers or ever have bonus damage to hull.


Defence platforms would then be tougher than their expected weight in ships, but have less direct firepower because they still only have 8S weapon equivalents, have much less upkeep (the reason you don't even keep them around for vanity's sake, they're stupid expensive to upkeep with advanced components. Combat in general would be less of a matter of "shoot once and entire enemy fleet is vapour and bits" and more of a slugfest where durability and disengagement have chances to make a difference.
 
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Nevars

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except battleships and a few ablative corvettes obsolete.
Not a few ablative corvettes but specifically torpedo corvette stomping battleship with the same naval cap, no if or but, torpvette fleet straight up murder entire fleet of alpha strike battleship (XL, LLL, L) even with PD escort will only help in making torpvettes lost more ships but in turn they get murder by carrier battleship then battleship get perfect victory against carrier battleship.

Late game spacebattle turn into this three type of ships rock paper scissors.
 
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DeanTheDull

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Hello,

I noticed that defense platforms are decent early game but become obsolete quickly. They keep a single frame for the entire game and thus get blown up in seconds by bigger, more advanced ship. There is no real evolution of actual platform defense. As an example a 50k equivalent fleet power star base should be able to hold a candle to a similar strength attacking fleet but it does not. Couldn't we have progressively "bigger hulls" platforms, as ships get bigger?

There is one evolution that really matters- the Ion Canon for Citaels- also illustrates the design intent for starbase defense platforms: they aren't meant to fight battles on their own, but to support a defending fleet in a fleet-on-fleet engagement. After the early game, 'stalling' is more the realm of Fortress Worlds than starbases- defense platforms are for a seperate purpose.

Strategically, there's three main roles for starbases: economics, fleet support, or defense support.

Economic starbases exist primarily to collect/generate resources, whether from collecting trade, solar panels, or starbase buildings including hydroponics or enclave stations. They aren't intended to fight at all, and so defense platforms are meaningless.

Fleet support starbases are expanding the fleet's size, either through fleet capacity or shipyards. Again, defense is not the role.

The only starbases intended to see combat are the defense ones... but let's look at what is actually available.
-Weapon modules are 2 M-slot weapons, 2-G-slot weapons, or 1 Hanger. All of these are more or less between a destroyer and a cruiser in damage output... but you could just plug in an Anchorage and bring in 2 destroyers or a cruiser instead.
-Defense buildings are aura effects. These include effects for the entire system including- increased fire rate for friendly forces (better the more friendly forces you have in the system), decreased enemy emergency FTL (better the more friendly forces you have in the system with bigger guns), decreased enemy shields (better the more anti-armor ships weapon loadouts you have in-system),


When even the combat-oriented starbase options aren't actually tailored to fighting off the foe on their own, but to maximizing the effectiveness for fleets, why should we expect defense platforms to serve a separate operational role?





In strategic contexts like Stellaris, where offensives are strong and mobile but defenses are static and can be overwhelmed by numbers, it's always important to recognize what strategic role defense is intended to play. It's not to block the enemy- that's Fortress worlds. After the early game, starbases are for boosting your fleets, either through expanding the economic base, or the fleet size. Defense, by the end, is for very specific contexts of predictable routes of advance... which defense platforms already support, as long as you have the fleets in system like intended.
 
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Mealya

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As a lover of Starbases I totally agree on the fact that Starbases and platforms are clearly outdated. It's so bad at the moment that this pushed me doing a mod to try fixing some problems. It's not perfect but it is something. A citadel on a fully defensive build cost 6200 alloys (with modules and building) that is about ~2,2 Juggernauts...

If I list some problems on the Starbases :
- Lack of Shields points.
- Impossibility to have Psionic shields on the Starbase
- The Citadel lacks 2 modules slots
- No T slots, no XL slots, no L slots either on the base layout and with defensive modules
- Impossibility to build all defensive buildings (Defense-Grid Supercomputer / Command Center / Target Uplink Computer / Disruption Field Generator / Communications Jammer) on a Citadel
- The A slot is stupid and can have % Evasion... On a Starbase.
- Impossibility to build your Starbase layout. Like on neutron stars where you have utility slots taken by useless shields. Or if you want to have a full Kinetic / Energy configuration, that's impossible.

On the platform side :
- It can get destroyed
- Ions cannons are less useful than double L slots platforms...

The worse thing is that even with modding you can't fix all that. Like if you mod the game to make the platform impossible to destroy, it will give an advantage to a stronger attacker during a war because platforms will be against you when you will try to take back your system. Etc.
 
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HFY

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Yeah, but they had a minimum placement range which was way longer than weapon ranges back then, so an enemy fleet would only ever have to fight one, max two of them at a time and eliminate it without damage.

But you could place them right on top of your ally's defense stations.

(Assuming you had allies... and if they backstabbed you, then having your stations in range of theirs was a different kind of benefit.)
 

GloatingSwine

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Not a few ablative corvettes but specifically torpedo corvette stomping battleship with the same naval cap, no if or but, torpvette fleet straight up murder entire fleet of alpha strike battleship (XL, LLL, L) even with PD escort will only help in making torpvettes lost more ships but in turn they get murder by carrier battleship then battleship get perfect victory against carrier battleship.

Late game spacebattle turn into this three type of ships rock paper scissors.

Yeah, but artillery battleships with about a dozen corvettes flying in front beat artillery battleships without those corvettes because they make the enemy waste that critical first salvo. So that fleet has two winning matchups.
 
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FinbarFlin

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Sins of a solar empire was king when it comes to system defence... great game... i mean one of the old verions of Stellaris had defence platforms which could be placed "freely" in the star system... but they where constraint by those large zones... actually if they did not had those constraints we could use them now in the same way as one would do in "Soase" until the invention of the jumpdrive...
 

Vorpaliminal

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The models for the larger defense platforms are still in the game as unused assets last I read, and the only shipsets that don't have them are from DLC that came out after the 2.0 overhaul from what I understand.
 

Charybde

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There is one evolution that really matters- the Ion Canon for Citaels- also illustrates the design intent for starbase defense platforms: they aren't meant to fight battles on their own, but to support a defending fleet in a fleet-on-fleet engagement. After the early game, 'stalling' is more the realm of Fortress Worlds than starbases- defense platforms are for a seperate purpose.

Strategically, there's three main roles for starbases: economics, fleet support, or defense support.

Economic starbases exist primarily to collect/generate resources, whether from collecting trade, solar panels, or starbase buildings including hydroponics or enclave stations. They aren't intended to fight at all, and so defense platforms are meaningless.

Fleet support starbases are expanding the fleet's size, either through fleet capacity or shipyards. Again, defense is not the role.

The only starbases intended to see combat are the defense ones... but let's look at what is actually available.
-Weapon modules are 2 M-slot weapons, 2-G-slot weapons, or 1 Hanger. All of these are more or less between a destroyer and a cruiser in damage output... but you could just plug in an Anchorage and bring in 2 destroyers or a cruiser instead.
-Defense buildings are aura effects. These include effects for the entire system including- increased fire rate for friendly forces (better the more friendly forces you have in the system), decreased enemy emergency FTL (better the more friendly forces you have in the system with bigger guns), decreased enemy shields (better the more anti-armor ships weapon loadouts you have in-system),


When even the combat-oriented starbase options aren't actually tailored to fighting off the foe on their own, but to maximizing the effectiveness for fleets, why should we expect defense platforms to serve a separate operational role?





In strategic contexts like Stellaris, where offensives are strong and mobile but defenses are static and can be overwhelmed by numbers, it's always important to recognize what strategic role defense is intended to play. It's not to block the enemy- that's Fortress worlds. After the early game, starbases are for boosting your fleets, either through expanding the economic base, or the fleet size. Defense, by the end, is for very specific contexts of predictable routes of advance... which defense platforms already support, as long as you have the fleets in system like intended.


I am not sure how this makes sense since the best way to support a fleet is just ... more ships. As you said yourself right now static defense are quite easy to overwhelm in the mid to late game, while fleets are mobile and have strong offensive AND defensive capabilities, especially with torpedoes and launchers, as was previously mentioned. Resources wise it's almost always better to build ships for support than static defenses. If the intent is, as the ftl modules suggest, to hold a hyperplane junction, then star bases should be competent at doing just that. Fortress worlds seem a bit of an aberration to me. They are almost impossible to take AND bombard and would be impractical to maintain in any logical economy as their only purpose is to station billions upon billions of defensive troops. IMHO they are the biggest problem with stalling the game right now. Maybe limit the fortress building to just one per planet would fix the issue.
 
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how to make mid to late game static defense a viable strategy and balancing it in such a way that star bases and platform building remain relevant throughout the game without completely de-incentivize players to actually go on the offensive. Increasing upkeep?
The thing about starbase and defense platforms, conceptually, is that they are really you pouring dump-truck loads of resources in to standing still.

I think mechanically the biggest problems with starbases are that they have few guns for their overall fleet cap size, a 50k citadel has like two dozen turrets. 50ks worth of Corvettes has substantially more turrets - even after a large chunk of them have been wiped out.
  • Defense platforms do solve this issue, bringing more guns to the table.
  • But they are destroyable and rarely last a whole battle.
  • And there's the rebuilding micro issue.

This pressure from tonnes of fleet guns focussing on a single target (the starbase) will usually wipe out shields fairly fast, leaving just armor and hull, which is little more than a waiting game (and XL/disruptors later in the game make this child's play to burn through).

In my mind starbases need 4 things
  • D-platforms are disabled rather than killed, the occupier can't repair them, only the original owner [or new owner after war] (e.g. repaired via constructors right-clicking and pressing repair defenses on a starbase, giving them some purpose in mid/late game).
  • Increase starbase survivability + reduce the number of "effective" enemy fleet guns.
    • There is a +/-starbase_damage modifier that is (to my knowledge) currently unused.
    • Slap -90% damage on small ships, -60%damage on cruisers and battleships (no modifiers on titans and up).
    • Add +x% ship starbase damage to titanic gun modules, missiles and bomber modules (and all crisis faction ships).
    • So now you can whittle away at a starbase but without using dedicated hardware it'll probably not go in your favour.
    • Increase base starbase stats at each tier.
  • Improve starbase offensive scaling.
    • Add a few new starbase building modules like Hangar bay 2, with double the fighters launched, or
    • missile turrets 2 - with more guns (or at least +100% fire rate on those same guns).
    • You can also have more interesting modules. For example. I've tested a capacitor script that will refill starbase shields to 100% once per battle (it checks every 7 days in combat, for when shields <1sp, then stops checking after refilling in that battle).
  • Buff ion cannons to deal AOE damage on-kill
    • I've done this with a combat script and it works amazingly.
    • Late game starbases with ion cannons can wipe huge chunks of Corvettes and destroyers from enemy fleets as they materialise at the hyperspace point.
    • The ion cannon will deal 40% of upfront damage to all surrounding ships in x1 units(roughly a battleship's length, unmodded), and 20% in x2 units from the target ship - it does have to land the killing blow for this to work, though that's not a big issue for ion guns.
I'd also add that I think pacifists should be able to build a second/super starbase, as a megastructure/orbital station (think about the massive starbases in sins of a solar empire). Their whole schtick is not being offensive, but the galaxy is a dangerous place, it makes sense to build a big immobile gun to protect yourself, atleast.

This would all help them stay relevant up to the late game. But the sheer weight of ships you can bring to bear means that starbases probably won't be relevant in the very late game without also reducing the overall number of ships most empires can field. E.g. by reducing fleet cap*, or increasing fleet cap costs per ship. This would also have performance advantages (less to pathfind), but that's verging on a topic for another thread.

* One idea I've thought of trying, is tying fleet capacity multipliers to admiral levels, so having a bunch of high ranking admirals would be super important for a big fleet.
 
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DeanTheDull

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I am not sure how this makes sense since the best way to support a fleet is just ... more ships.

Incorrect- the best way to support a fleet in combat is aura effects, which affect the effectiveness of the fleets. You could increase the fire rate of a fleet by 10% by building another 10% of ships at thousands of alloys, or you could build a 250 alloy Command Center. You could increase your first strike capacity by building more first strike vessels, or by building a 50 alloy communication jammer to slow enemy speed by 20% and emergency disengatement chance for more kills.


As you said yourself right now static defense are quite easy to overwhelm in the mid to late game, while fleets are mobile and have strong offensive AND defensive capabilities, especially with torpedoes and launchers, as was previously mentioned.

And this is why Starbase aura effects are their strategic niche. The reason that Titans are called mobile starbases isn't their combat ability, but their combat support.

Resources wise it's almost always better to build ships for support than static defenses. If the intent is, as the ftl modules suggest, to hold a hyperplane junction, then star bases should be competent at doing just that. Fortress worlds seem a bit of an aberration to me. They are almost impossible to take AND bombard and would be impractical to maintain in any logical economy as their only purpose is to station billions upon billions of defensive troops.

...and that's that point.

Fortress worlds are indeed a non-productive asset, which is why you almost never build them in the early game and only build them when you have the economic surpluses to afford a large, non-productive military expense. But they are a strategic investment worth pursuing precisely because they are almost impossible to take or bombard into submission, which requires the enemy significant time to to do. Time to move, or rebuild, your fleet after a loss that led to the point where you are being attacked, rather than the attacker.

And this last point is the key one, because to insist that starbases should be able to fill the same stall roll without fleet support begs the question of what you expect them to do when they have fleet support. Is seiging a starbase supposed to be a multi-year affair? Why?

To have a fortress world in the first place, you are making a strategic consideration that you can not afford enough fleets to never come under attack in the first place. Whether it's because your empire is too wide, your forces too dispersed, too weak, or whatever. Therefore you are giving up economic gains (the opportunity cost of not using the planet as an economic world), and doing so knowing that any investment could be hard-countered by a Colossus or warp drives, because time in the face of an inferior local fleet is worth more.

To argue that that stall role should be the role of the Starbase is to argue that a starbase should be able to hold out for years- or decades, depending on the previous investment- against a foe who could already defeat your fleet.

Which begs the question you still haven't addressed of... why?



IMHO they are the biggest problem with stalling the game right now. Maybe limit the fortress building to just one per planet would fix the issue.

Alternatively, you just don't understand how to effectively use the strategic tools available to you.
 
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GloatingSwine

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This would all help them stay relevant up to the late game. But the sheer weight of ships you can bring to bear means that starbases probably won't be relevant in the very late game without also reducing the overall number of ships most empires can field. E.g. by reducing fleet cap*, or increasing fleet cap costs per ship. This would also have performance advantages (less to pathfind), but that's verging on a topic for another thread.

* One idea I've thought of trying, is tying fleet capacity multipliers to admiral levels, so having a bunch of high ranking admirals would be super important for a big fleet.

The only way to actually make a difference there is an engagement width for systems which only lets a certain weight of ships fight at a time. Since there's no meaningful difference between one fleet and two of half the size in the same place .
 
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