spfisk said:
As you all could've known Paradox will never tie such things to race/nationality... It's not PC and won't be too good for some foreign markets
*me points to forum rules*
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As you all could've known Paradox will never tie such things to race/nationality... It's not PC and won't be too good for some foreign markets
*me points to forum rules*
Yeah, nice screenie. 
But could somebody come up with a new dissent icon? I still don't know what the current icon is supposed to be (a hand ?). And it kind of sticks out with the rest of the new clear icons.
Minor nitpick though.o
But could somebody come up with a new dissent icon? I still don't know what the current icon is supposed to be (a hand ?). And it kind of sticks out with the rest of the new clear icons.
Minor nitpick though.
o
Yet, I don't think that the Japanese fought so stubbornly because they were slant-eyed (Is that the correct word?), had tanned skin and lived in a nation called Japan, rather it was because they had been taught that it was an honour to die for the Emperor etc. What if some Japanese communists had somehow taken power in Japan in 1936, told the Japanese that the Emperor was an idiot and shot him, and then sent Japanese to the USSR to fight the Germans in 1941. How fanatic would the Japanese then be?Väinö I said:
BTW was is that in your sig about?
Vulture said:
I can remember that it was answered a looong time ago in the HOI forum. Hmmm, where is that thread...krill said:
This is good stuff! I hope the boyz at work find a good way to allow the AI to handle all this.. that's my biggest concern right now.
/F
/F
Tracid said:That´s just mean...and also means you don´t have enough to do. So, get your junior butt back into the beta forum, you´ve just volunteered for some slaving!
Yay Tracid! :rofl:
Ok, I like sadists, so you are back on my Christmas Card List.
spfisk said:Yet, I don't think that the Japanese fought so stubbornly because they were slant-eyed (Is that the correct word?), had tanned skin and lived in a nation called Japan, rather it was because they had been taught that it was an honour to die for the Emperor etc. What if some Japanese communists had somehow taken power in Japan in 1936, told the Japanese that the Emperor was an idiot and shot him, and then sent Japanese to the USSR to fight the Germans in 1941. How fanatic would the Japanese then be?
BTW was is that in your sig about?
Almond eyed is a pretty good term for the Japanese. And, AFAIK, brunt of the Japanese population isn't all that tanned.
In any case, it's clearly a cultural thing, yes (I didn't claim otherwise). Howerver there's quite a bit more to it than just dying for the Emporor (or whatever authority might be in charge). I belive it was mostly a case of personal honor, as one who surrenders not only disgraces himself but his family and friends as well. This is also stated as the reason for the relatively bad treatment of war prisoners in Japanese camps, as PoWs were deemed to be lower than scum.
Although the scenario you bring up is mind boggingly remote (on par with Nazis coming in power in US in '36), it does bring up an intresting question. I'm not sure if doubt towards the government would have interfered with the bushido code though. Would surrendering to Germans at pocket near Kiev make a Japanese soldier (or his family) any less worthless than surrendering to Americans at Iwo Jima?
(Edit) My sig is just a quote from a Soviet propaganda poster.
I want HOI2 to be historical game. So I don't want "Super Italian troops" and Japs running away when they see US soldier
Vulture said:
I guess you will find a way out of this...and tie it to other things...like ideology...
Then morale becomes an issue of fanatism.
And toughness could easily be tied to doctrines!
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christianx said:I guess you will find a way out of this...and tie it to other things...like ideology...
Then morale becomes an issue of fanatism.
And toughness could easily be tied to doctrines!
These ideas are very similar to some already implemented in CORE (for example "Bushido Code" which gives a nice org bonus to all Japanese units). And since some of the CORE members are involved in this, who knows?...
Most informative screenshot
This is the most informative screenshot sofar.
The main concepts of Hoi2 become more precise.
I'm a little afraid of the amount of micromanagement that seems necessary, especially in MP, but I'm sure the MP beta-testers will keep it reasonnable.
This is the most informative screenshot sofar.
The main concepts of Hoi2 become more precise.
I'm a little afraid of the amount of micromanagement that seems necessary, especially in MP, but I'm sure the MP beta-testers will keep it reasonnable.
Vulture said:
I hope nobody has misunderstood me. I dont talk about, that germans are better peoples or soldiers than italian soldiers. The toughness or higher morale of some nations in WW2 had alsways something to do with ideology, training, the current situation as a great Power, and sometimes also the history of the country.
It has also something to do, what the soldier would lost, if he run back in a battle. So soviet soldiers were better in attacking in WW2, even if the situation is very bad, because he knowed, that he loose his life, if the soviets loose the battle/war. The comunistic comissars shooted every soldier who run back. And if the soldier came to german prison, he was as good as dead.
The same were also for every nation if the situation were the same. If the italians knowed, that every soldier lost his life, if the battle was lost, than everybody has done surely 10times as much. But if you say, a allied prisoncamp is better than to be a soldier for the hated Mussolini, than what good could a italian soldier be.
It is very good known, that most italians hated Mussolini. If the situation were the same in germany, than the german soldiers surely were much worse in battle. I am also sure the indoctrination in WW2 were very important. If germany had to fight a war today for Mr. Schroeder, than i am absolutely sure, they would lost every war, especially if germany is the aggressor. Only if germany would be attacked, lets say by a new Superpower, who sweared to kill every german, because they are all scum, than there is some chance that the germans would do a better work. But Germany today isnt Germany in 1939. No indoctrination, no years of soldier training (from the time you are a boy). And there is no great Leader for Germany today who most german soldiers admire.
You get what i would say. There are many things, who gave nations in WW2 (and in every war before and in the future) better or inferior soldiers.
These aspects could be implemented very easy in HoI2 with morale. Lets say a german Player gives every Org-gaining tech to his allies, than in HoI1 this alllied Nation had the same Org. So every unit of italian, rumanian, hungary..... allies was at the same quality as the german ones. Come on, was this realistic ? No, that was only a thing, Players exploited in HoI. Now in HoI2 this morale could close this door, and furter more, open a door for much more fine tuning.
You ask why? Let me explain. Every AI-Modder or Programmer has now a very good tool to make the AI more historic. If i see that eg. AI-Italy makes his job too good, than a Morale-drop could prevent this in future.
If i see the russians are to bad at defense against germany than you could rise the Morale.
And the best thing is: You could change Morale with events at any time in the game. If you see eg. that the russians do a too good Job at the beginning from the russian-german war, then drop this morale down at the beginning. A AI-Modder could give the russians a very low morale at beginning of the war, reflecting the fact, that the russian soldiers had no fun to die for the aggesive plans of the hated dictator Stalin. So russia do a very bad Job in every-war from 1936 on. So the finnish-russian war is a desaster, as it was in history. Than the germans attack the russians in 1941. The first 3 months russia do also a very bad job in defensing against the germans. But then, the Ai-Programmer starts a script (lets say 3 months after russia is attacked by a great power) in wich Stalin proclaims the great Fatherland-War against the Nazis. Now the russian Morale goes up another 20-30%. From this time on, russian troops are much better on the field.
With this tool, the game could be very interesting. I thought about scripts who displays the fact, that something changes in the Morale of a nation. We heard about, that in HOI2 there will be Headquarter-Units. If Johan would define, that your first HQ-Unit would display your leader (Hitler, Stalin, Mussolini, Churchil....), then killing this unit, would mean killing Hitler, Stalin etc. What happened with the german soldiers after Hitlers death, or with the italians, after mussolini was prisoned. A very hard Morale drop. So italian troops could be made worthless after a script says, that Mussolini was arrested.......very historic. For historic reasons, this script shouldn´t fire automatically if the time is 1943/44, because a successfull italian/german War against the allies would bring Mussoloni historical to more honor, not to prison. It could also be defined, that the Leader of a country is always in the Capital. After you loose your capital, you loose much org, but this should be discussed before.
Lets think, what else would be possible. You could take or give Morale to a country for taking or loosing Provinces/Cities. I am sure, every German soldier had lost some morale, if he heared Berlin was taken by the enemys, even, if Hitler has survived, and command now from Frankfurt or Munich.
What do think the community about this idea ? Maybe i should open a new thread about this theme ??
comments please....
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X_MasterDave_X said:
Easy? :rofl:
You'd need a dynamic scheme to calculate each nations general morale against each nation its fighting.
It has to be dynamic because it wouldn't make sense for the Italians to have poor morale of they were well equiped and had perhaps broken through in the invasion of France and started the war with a nice victory. How good is german morale going to be if France beats them off in 39?
It has to calculate this morale vs seperate countries, or at least alliances, because different nations treated prisioners differently. E.g surrender to the allies but fight on vs the russians as germany falls apart.
This all means that while it's a nice idea it would be very hard and complex to model.
I dont think, you should see this morale thing so complicated.Darkrenown said:
Lets say every nation has a base Morale of 30%. Next some nations get extra Morale for the fact, that they are a major Power at this time (maybe + 10%). Next every Nation with high soldier indoctrination gets another 10%. Next some special cases, eg. Germany gets an extra Bonus of 10% because they have such an special Leader (another 10%). So germany have a sum of 70% morale, Italy has 40%, US has 40%, Bolivia has 30%.....and so on.
Its not neccessary that something go dynamic. German soldiers have from 1939 70% Morale, until they lost Berlin, or Hitler dies or......
You should see Morale like Organisation in HoI1. A small Morale limits the Org. Maybe Org and Morale could be conected with some formula, e.g.
Combat readiness= Morale x Org. With low Morale, a unit goes faster down, if bombarded. But a nation with high morale withstands Bombardment better, and stays longer in the Battle because, Org is connected with the Morale of the country.
There could be made much events and rules, e.g. if a Major Power looses a great Battle or Provinces they lose 1-5%Morale. So if Italy conquers with the help of Germany Egypt, the British loose Morale, but Italian and German Troops gain Morale.
This Morale bonus goes not only to the Divisions in Africa. All soldiers of a Power get this Bonus immideatly, because they are proud, that the mighty British Empire was serverly wounded. In the future Germans, and Italiens fight better, British more badly or better. It could be difined, that Nations react different, if they loose a battle or Province. Some Nations fight better, others more bad after this. Lets say the germans land in GB. After the first loss of this Province, all british troops fight with higher morale, because they all know, that London is in direct danger. And they dont wont go down under Nazi-Rule.
That are all only examples, what could be done with the Morale modifier in HoI2.
But the main concept isnt complicated at all. A fery easy formula. And if Morale is in HoI (and the screenshot said this) than, what can stop an Modder from doing such things above, if Morale is editable ?
All I want to say is, that Morale is a fine new thing in HoI2. Lets see, what could be done in the future with this thing.
Nothing personal, but some of the grammar and spelling on here is awful. Though I do understand some of those posting do not speak English as a first language.
I'm really liking this latest screenshot, and I'm glad to know that you'll be able to do some one-on-one trading. But there still is a world market, correct?
I'm really liking this latest screenshot, and I'm glad to know that you'll be able to do some one-on-one trading. But there still is a world market, correct?
blur2005 said:
So what's your problem? If someone's english grammar is awful that likely means the person is taking extra pains to express himself in a language that is foreign to him. That should credit the person in my humble opinion. And maybe the person himself/herself doesn't know what kind of mistakes he/she's making and won't mind if you point them out. (Maybe in PM 's ?). Picture yourself posting in a language you rarely speak like german or french. :wacko:
It's great that we have english as a sort of globalized language to communicate in the western world but that doesn't mean that everybody suddenly has to be fleunt in it. Mind you, some of us find it hard enough to master their 'own language' let alone a second one like english.
For bad spellers links like this may help though;
http://www.yourdictionary.com/
PS; sorry for getting OT, carry on please.
krill said:
In my experience, some of the most atrocious spelling, grammar, and punctuation errors comes from people who DO have English as a first language, and are simply lazy. Which I don't consider an excuse on an Internet forum.
Of course, yes, a large number of members of this forum don't have English as a first language. And while that clears them for spelling, grammar, and even some punctuation, I don't understand why this would disable them from ending sentences with a full stop, and starting new ones with a capital letter. That seems a terribly simple concept to me.
But don't mind me, I'm a terrible stickler for these kinds of things.
Anyways, on topic now. The screenshots look great. I never played Hearts of Iron, but they are nonetheless impressive.
There is many occasions where the Italians could simply have surrendered and the British would then have had free access to Rommel's rear, but instead the Italians fought... Or the very first battle the Italians fought in North Africa against the British, where even British reports afterwards stated that the Italians had fought to the last. That first battle gives a good indication of initial Italian morale and what might have been, had the Italians possesed the weapons to destroy the British tanks in 1940.X_MasterDave_X said:
The Italians had more than Mussolini to fight for: The King, Italy, their pride, honour and comrades.
Not in 1936 after the conquest of Abyssinia, at that time he was really popular. He lost popularity with the early defeats in Africa and Greece, but regained some of it with the victories in 1941-42, only in 1943 were the Italians' faith in him completely shattered by the loss of Tunisia and Sicily.X_MasterDave_X said:
no trade! please save us from the absolute need to trade to get a working nation, like in Victoria. Then you wont be able to focus on war.
nice screen anyway
nice screen anyway
X_MasterDave_X said:
Your idea is good, but I think it requires too many special cases for each country. It's best to keep the rules for morale very general.
Base morale: 30%
Major power: +10% morale
Enemy controls at least 1 national province: +10% morale
Loss of capital: -20% morale
Annexed or puppeted a great power: +5% morale for each
Territory: (Total provinces - starting province total) / (starting province total / 10)
ex. The country starts with 30 provinces, and conquers another 30. (60 - 30) / 3 = +10% morale
ex. The country starts with 20 provinces, and loses 10 of them. (10 - 20) / 2 = -5% morale
Japan (and only Japan) should receive a cultural bonus to morale of 50%. If you want Germany to receive a cultural bonus, it should be to organization, around 5-10%, due to innovative leadership.
Trade is all right, but it must be kept relatively simple with changes to the trade deals only being necessary every couple of months for the nation to work.Backfire said: