Number of provinces : Less than HOI3 and more than HOI2, but closer to which one ?

[Jazumir]

No, FOARP, i am not really talking about the mobile market. I wouldnt count myself potential part of the target audience for such a DLC, if i was talking about mobile internet devices, since i do not possess one, nor do i intent to do so any time soon.
What i am talking about is people who played HoI1&2, but never developed real interest in 3, because of two mututally amplifying reasons:
- When they did play the classics, they were young - when 3 came out, they simply had less time in RL to devote to it. Jobs, kids, wives... that sort of thing.
- When, on the rare occassion of a totally free weekend or such, they rub their hands and wanna try this new iteration of this series, that always had been time-consuming, and install & load the game, they just find that even a weekend will not be enough to get through this. What´s the point, when you know, you´ll have to stop, when it gets interesting (or when you just got the basics, if it is as complex as it looks...)? ´Nahh´, they say then, ´better get back to another round of civ (f.e.)...´.

I think it´s just a matter of fact, that as a franchise ages, so does its costumer base - and the reduction of avaiable time that usually goes along with that just doesnt match up with an ever increasing complexity of the franchise very well. Not only does it scare newcomers, but it also keeps some of those who would actually keep playing the game through its iteration from doing so. (And it keeps me from even trying MP).

A ´lite-DLC´ would cater to both groups, newcomers and time-contrained veterans (who happen to be have good buying power, mostly, btw ;D ), without having the basegames complexity be limited by their demand.

 

[Holy.Death]

Battle planning feature alone has a high chance of reducing needless micromanagement associated with conquering provinces and if other gameplay elements (like production) will be well thought - and transparent - then there is no need to be afraid of the scale of the game. Still, the guy clearly didn't give it a chance if he deleted it after seeing a number of provinces alone...

 

[Augustus93]

Battle planning feature alone has a high chance of reducing needless micromanagement associated with conquering provinces and if other gameplay elements (like production) will be well thought - and transparent - then there is no need to be afraid of the scale of the game. Still, the guy clearly didn't give it a chance if he deleted it after seeing a number of provinces alone...

I was in a similar situation as that guy but not with HoI3 but rather CK2. I didn't delete CK2 but I did not play it because it was different to all the rest of the franchises because you played as a character and not as a country. I still prefer to play the other franchises rather than CK2 but I can play CK2 without any problems.

 

[MilosM]

What i am talking about is people who played HoI1&2, but never developed real interest in 3, because of two mututally amplifying reasons:
- When they did play the classics, they were young - when 3 came out, they simply had less time in RL to devote to it. Jobs, kids, wives... that sort of thing.

When HoI3 came out I had plenty of free time to try it out, but no matter how many hours I spent playing it, I could never really understand it(actually I could, but I always thought that I am missing something, so I am not enjoying it due to not playing it "right").

No matter how many times I tried, I just couldn't enjoy it.Too many provinces combined with tedious Army command system made this game unplayable for me.Every time I finish organizing my OB and starting a war, I felt like Oh no now I have to move these armies, but I have just spent 30 minutes organizing them and putting everything in place,everything except limited movement is a nightmare.How do you people handle this?

Btw I loved everything else about the game, and I tried using AI controll, but that requires micro as well.



EDIT: The only thing I am yet to try is to play MP where couple of players control the same nation(like 4 players for SU), I guess that would be more fun.

 

[fabius]

Yup, and that micro doesn't go away or even change significantly if you reduce the number of provinces.

Yeah, 3 month ago if I was asked do I want HoI4 to reduce or drop Division commanders- "hell no!" But with the plan to make assigning Commanders mean more, and integrated into battle plans then I can see how it could work better.

And the Battle Plan system could very well trim a lot of micro regarding relating to battle management with more provinces.

 

[fabius]

Battle planning feature alone has a high chance of reducing needless micromanagement associated with conquering provinces and if other gameplay elements (like production) will be well thought - and transparent - then there is no need to be afraid of the scale of the game. Still, the guy clearly didn't give it a chance if he deleted it after seeing a number of provinces alone...

Ah, you said it already

 

[Nick3210]

- When they did play the classics, they were young - when 3 came out, they simply had less time in RL to devote to it. Jobs, kids, wives... that sort of thing.

"If your wife doesn't let you play HoI-multiplayer 2 evenings in a week - kick her out and find new!"

When I was young I played Hoi-2. But now I can't play HoI-3 not because I have not 2 free evenings in a week. But because HoI-3 map is terrible

 

[Oberst Steiner]

Yeah, 3 month ago if I was asked do I want HoI4 to reduce or drop Division commanders- "hell no!" But with the plan to make assigning Commanders mean more, and integrated into battle plans then I can see how it could work better.

And the Battle Plan system could very well trim a lot of micro regarding relating to battle management with more provinces.

Yeah, I love it when auto assign puts Guderian in command of infantry division.

 

[The H-Man]

I think, that the problem of war beeing too far stretched will be gone with the new battleplan feature. The most of annoying micromanagment ,in my games, came from 2 things: Production sliders and HQs. Battleplan execution may help here, but my problem is: I like the battlesystem how it is. I just want the HQs to move behind my lines automatically. Just adding an AI to make them move 2 provinces or 1 province behind the frontline would be enough. The production sliders are changing every 3 seconds, so you either give it to the (bad) AI controll or just live with it. I would like it to have settings like: "always assign enough" or just make a "focus" checkbox, so the AI knows what to focus. Other than that I love the game the way it is

 

[fabius]

I think, that the problem of war beeing too far stretched will be gone with the new battleplan feature. The most of annoying micromanagment ,in my games, came from 2 things: Production sliders and HQs. Battleplan execution may help here, but my problem is: I like the battlesystem how it is. I just want the HQs to move behind my lines automatically. Just adding an AI to make them move 2 provinces or 1 province behind the frontline would be enough. The production sliders are changing every 3 seconds, so you either give it to the (bad) AI controll or just live with it. I would like it to have settings like: "always assign enough" or just make a "focus" checkbox, so the AI knows what to focus. Other than that I love the game the way it is

If they said all HQs are gone I'm still in the "Hell no!!" camp. Some automation, and I don't know, maybe more concrete meaningfulness. I like that they add stats, but if they start to be integral to the Battle Plan mechanics then even better. I just started to loose the with assigning commanders- especially with all the divisions too.

Was going to say "But sure, some loose Auto AI control could help reduce micro". But it occurred to me that perhaps it should be the opposite. We pay closed attention to fewer higher formations, and via plans the AI is better at managing all of the divisions.

 

[Smiffus]

Honestly, people should learn to respect people´s taste. I´m not asking to remove your orange. I´m asking for the game to have oranges AND apples. It´s not something like the division commanders which is way more difficult to make as an starting option as it messes balance at an even more fundamental level (at least if it was HOI 3 style OOB).

I respect everyones taste, give me the opportunity to disagree with them.

And I don't begrudge you your apple, I'm just afraid that if you want an orange AND an apple, you'll only get half of each (and thus a non functioning game). Which is my point, I want a good working game regardless wether it's an apple or an orange.

FOARP: Here's the point on which I agree with Beaga and the others - HOI3 suffered from excessive micromanagement. However, in reality province number wasn't the real probelm causing this - the arcane and illogical supply system, guerilla warfare whack-a-mole , researching endless incremental technologies, shuffling production sliders etc. were far greater in-game time-wastes.

Indeed.

 

[fabius]

Thought just occurred to me: If MSR road and rail network and supply system was better implemented then there'd be less of an issue with more provinces and coverage with divisions in the east.

 

[Beagá]

Yes, I can see it now: we can call it the "Pointlessly Cripple The Game To Satisfy HOI2 Fabois" DLC. Why not just play HOI2, if that's the game you want to play?

If it's as easy as you say, then just mod the map yourself. Something makes me think that such a mod wouldn't be very popular though, seeing as how it would greatly reduce the intricacy of the maneouvres you can carry out for no gain in any other area.

1- You aren´t crippling the game as no one is forced to play the large province version.
2- As Jazumir said it makes the game MUCH faster to play in MP, na important concern. Almost no one plays Civilization 5 in Huge maps with Marathon pace. People play it on médium with normal or Fast pace. Don´t need to say why, do I? He said well enough the advantage for MP for most people.
3- It makes supply lines easier to simulate, naturally, as it means less provinces for supply to go through.
4- Combats are concentrated and thus each battle is more meaningful and thus more FUN to win.
5- It improves AI performance by allowing it to concentrate assets better.

That, honestly is my main issue with HOI 3 province system. The AI simply can´t handle the garrisoning of the likes of Italy, Japan and África. We all know how abyssal the UK AI is. Why? Because it has to focus on defending the islands. At the same time you can´t give it too much stuff because it wouldn´t be realistic and might well mean spanking Germany in France. The result?

3 divisions in North África, no extra garrison in Malta, = ridiculous North África campaign. Italy? Sends all its army to Russia and North África and thus you can invade in 1941-42 already and make them surrender in months.

And honestly stop that "play HOI 2" crap. No one here defends games per se (at least I don´t), but gameplay features in them that people liked or disliked, and that should be the topic. HOI 2 is na old game and when people defend it they defend the "feel" of it, which is indeed quite different from HOI3´s feel.

And yes I´m aware that changing the province size won´t solve all issues with the game.

 

[PEP]

Agreed. Please PDS give us country size provinces! Why? Well here is why :

1- Country size provinces would make it much easier to play MP. Chess is the ultimate MP game and it only has 64 provinces so why should HoI have more?
2- The supply system would be absolutely flawless since supply lines would never be more than a couple of provinces long.
3- Each campaign would be over after a single gigantic battle that involves no thinking whatsoever! Can you imagine how fun this would be?!
4- And finally, the AI would have no trouble dealing with such a limited amount of provinces making the game much more challenging and interesting to play.

I do realize it would mean forgetting about any secondary map mode with smaller provinces because it would be mad to try and design two different working games in one but HoI isn't a Gary Grigsby's game so who cares?

 

[Augustus93]

Agreed. Please PDS give us country size provinces! Why? Well here is why :

1- Country size provinces would make it much easier to play MP. Chess is the ultimate MP game and it only has 64 provinces so why should HoI have more?
2- The supply system would be absolutely flawless since supply lines would never be more than a couple of provinces long.
3- Each campaign would be over after a single gigantic battle that involves no thinking whatsoever! Can you imagine how fun this would be?!
4- And finally, the AI would have no trouble dealing with such a limited amount of provinces making the game much more challenging and interesting to play.

I do realize it would mean forgetting about any secondary map mode with smaller provinces because it would be mad to try and design two different working games in one but HoI isn't a Gary Grigsby's game so who cares?

:rofl: Great sarcasm!

 

[Mannstien]

Agreed. Please PDS give us country size provinces! Why? Well here is why :

1- Country size provinces would make it much easier to play MP. Chess is the ultimate MP game and it only has 64 provinces so why should HoI have more?
2- The supply system would be absolutely flawless since supply lines would never be more than a couple of provinces long.
3- Each campaign would be over after a single gigantic battle that involves no thinking whatsoever! Can you imagine how fun this would be?!
4- And finally, the AI would have no trouble dealing with such a limited amount of provinces making the game much more challenging and interesting to play.

I do realize it would mean forgetting about any secondary map mode with smaller provinces because it would be mad to try and design two different working games in one but HoI isn't a Gary Grigsby's game so who cares?

My thoughts exactly, we don't need Paradox building a better AI and supply system instead let's simplify the map so that instead of needing to actually plan a military campaign we just click DoW France and one massive battle takes place for a month or two and we just get the results.

 

[Beagá]

Agreed. Please PDS give us country size provinces! Why? Well here is why :

For a comedian, you are a good janitor.

Thanks for proving how self-centered the "community" is. Get out of your HOI 3 bubble. Not everyone thinks like you and has the same taste. Said more than once that I´d like a system that is a mix between HOI 2 and HOI 3 and even HOI 2 didn´t have one-province countries, mr. Hodor.

 

[PEP]

Not everyone thinks like you and has the same taste.

Yes but it seems I'm not alone in my dislike of a few "big" provinces. And I was simply trying to bring your reasoning to its logical end: if many small provinces cause trouble, then reducing the number of provinces should help and therefore the less provinces the better the game! Except solving the (very real) problems you pointed out doesn't necessarily mean diminishing the number of provinces.

Me? I like having many small provinces. You don't and that's fine. What annoys me is that you keep coming up with reasons to prove to everyone else that you're right and that fewer provinces is the way to go when that clearly doesn't have to be the case. When it comes to the "right" number of provinces, the devs have to find a balance between too many and not enough and that perfect spot doesn't exist. There is no perfect solution that will satisfy everybody since the "best" number of provinces is highly subjective. Some people want to play some kind of worldwide "War in the East" and others just want to play "Risk", HoI4 will be somewhere in the middle and we'll just have to accept what the devs have in store for us.

(Personally I just hope there will be enough provinces to give the game some "operational" vibe that in my opinion is lacking when the number of provinces is too limited but I completely understand that it isn't something every other player is looking for.)

 

[Mannstien]

Honestly, it sounds like a design decision has been made already by the devs, let's hope they give a good editor along with the game and than it will help those that like fewer provinces and those that want more or just want to do some redesign/corrections on their own.

 

[Beagá]

As long as it´s easy to do. I don´t know if it´s actually possible to mod, say, HOI 3 map to have like, 25% less provinces because if it was possible and easy I´d have done it myself a long time ago.