Number of provinces : Less than HOI3 and more than HOI2, but closer to which one ?

[Augustus93]

There has never been a ten factory limit in HOI3.

Oh yes there was and still is. 10 IC, 10 AA, 10 radars, 10 infra, 10 airfields, 10 forts, 10 nuclear reactors and 10 rocket testing sites per province and if it is a coastal province then there is also 10 coastal forts and 10 naval bases per province.

 

[fabius]

.... A similar problem as pointed was that any increase in number would require that provinces be covered either by brigades or a division to cover more than one province.

Think I'd vote towards a Division being assigned more than one province. Maybe auto deploy the brigade or abstract it if the AI couldn't handle it.

 

[Smiffus]

I think the easier solution would be simply to add a Big Provinces option at the start. That way, what is considered a region in hOI 3 would be a province.

Since it´s obvious by now that it´s impossible to please everyone with a single approach, Paradox should try to make it customizable. As long as they focus on making the AI for small provinces, once it´s done it will be easy to adapt it to handle a big province one.

Please no, this whole 'make it an option' rationale should stop already, make a choice and stick with it. This should make for a better game, as the designers can focus on one thing instead of making sure the game works with all options (which it won't). I personally would prefer the HOI3 number of provinces (in this case) but I would be fine with less.

 

[Augustus93]

Please no, this whole 'make it an option' rationale should stop already, make a choice and stick with it. This should make for a better game, as the designers can focus on one thing instead of making sure the game works with all options (which it won't). I personally would prefer the HOI3 number of provinces (in this case) but I would be fine with less.

They have already stated that there will be more provinces in HoI4 than HoI3, more in places where they were fewer provinces and somewhat less in Europe. So this whole discussion is pointless. Sorry HoI2/DH/AoD fans, it seems that you will be stuck at HoI2/DH/AoD forever...

 

[Oberst Steiner]

I don't like that I wouldn't be able to control every division myself. If that remains and there is no reason not to, I won't be buying this game.

 

[Augustus93]

I don't like that I wouldn't be able to control every division myself. If that remains and there is no reason not to, I won't be buying this game.

You can control every division yourself. However you will not get any bonus as when you use the battle planner. And you actually control your troops with the battle planner as well but not as some sort of God but instead like a ruler who gives orders to his generals and they follow the plan made by you.

 

[Oberst Steiner]

You can control every division yourself. However you will not get any bonus as when you use the battle planner. And you actually control your troops with the battle planner as well but not as some sort of God but instead like a ruler who gives orders to his generals and they follow the plan made by you.

Yes, but those generals are AI and that's what I don't like. AI is usually not very good.

 

[Augustus93]

Yes, but those generals are AI and that's what I don't like. AI is usually not very good.

Let's see how they work first before making a judgement.

 

[Nick3210]

They have already stated that there will be more provinces in HoI4 than HoI3, more in places where they were fewer provinces and somewhat less in Europe. So this whole discussion is pointless. Sorry HoI2/DH/AoD fans, it seems that you will be stuck at HoI2/DH/AoD forever...

It's really sad.
When I first time installed HoI-3 I was shocked about number of provinces. But I continued to study the game!
But when I made ZOOM.... and saw each province have 3-4 small provinces in it, I in furious deleted the game
For these years I several times made it again. Install HoI-3, ZOOM, furious and deleting the game.

I so hoped about HoI-4 (

 

[Beagá]

Please no, this whole 'make it an option' rationale should stop already, make a choice and stick with it. This should make for a better game, as the designers can focus on one thing instead of making sure the game works with all options (which it won't). I personally would prefer the HOI3 number of provinces (in this case) but I would be fine with less.

Civilization 5 gives tons of customization options at the start. I´m not asking for ponies as units or other fantastic BS start option but something to reduce the complete boredom that is the land combat and help the AI garrison coasts decently.

You aren´t the one developing the game so don´t act and talk as you are. If a feature is good it should be included. Does it means more work? Yes (as obviously ANY feature means work). Is it worthwhile? Yes. Any extra customization option at the start would be interesting to increase replayability.

Honestly, people should learn to respect people´s taste. I´m not asking to remove your orange. I´m asking for the game to have oranges AND apples. It´s not something like the division commanders which is way more difficult to make as an starting option as it messes balance at an even more fundamental level (at least if it was HOI 3 style OOB).

 

[Augustus93]

Civilization 5 gives tons of customization options at the start. I´m not asking for ponies as units or other fantastic BS start option but something to reduce the complete boredom that is the land combat and help the AI garrison coasts decently.

You aren´t the one developing the game so don´t act and talk as you are. If a feature is good it should be included. Does it means more work? Yes (as obviously ANY feature means work). Is it worthwhile? Yes. Any extra customization option at the start would be interesting to increase replayability.

Honestly, people should learn to respect people´s taste. I´m not asking to remove your orange. I´m asking for the game to have oranges AND apples. It´s not something like the division commanders which is way more difficult to make as an starting option as it messes balance at an even more fundamental level (at least if it was HOI 3 style OOB).

This feature would be good in a space game maybe where you choose how large your universe is. However what you are suggesting is more like a mapmod. In fact it can easily be done by modders. It is also far more easier to combine provinces into one than adding provinces which is another reason mods will be done that make your wish true that there will be less provinces but as for something official, no it is not at all likely to be made.

 

[RisingSun]

Well for larger regions will be alittle off since bombers would have to fly to point A to B, the center spot for those regions. I would keep it as in HoI3, look good enough. Unless they switch to hex grids, those hexes and you cant go wrong with them.

 

[Augustus93]

Well for larger regions will be alittle off since bombers would have to fly to point A to B, the center spot for those regions. I would keep it as in HoI3, look good enough. Unless they switch to hex grids, those hexes and you cant go wrong with them.

Yes, you could go very wrong with the hexes. The borders would look horrible if the hexes are not small enough.

 

[FOARP]

They have already stated that there will be more provinces in HoI4 than HoI3, more in places where they were fewer provinces and somewhat less in Europe. So this whole discussion is pointless. Sorry HoI2/DH/AoD fans, it seems that you will be stuck at HoI2/DH/AoD forever...

. . . and really HOI2/DH/AoD will still be there if they want to play them, so what's stopping them?

Please no, this whole 'make it an option' rationale should stop already, make a choice and stick with it. This should make for a better game, as the designers can focus on one thing instead of making sure the game works with all options (which it won't). I personally would prefer the HOI3 number of provinces (in this case) but I would be fine with less.

I couldn't agree more. The "make it an option" argument is essentially asking Paradox to make two games instead of one, for the same price.

Civilization 5 gives tons of customization options at the start. I´m not asking for ponies as units or other fantastic BS start option but something to reduce the complete boredom that is the land combat and help the AI garrison coasts decently.

You aren´t the one developing the game so don´t act and talk as you are. If a feature is good it should be included. Does it means more work? Yes (as obviously ANY feature means work). Is it worthwhile? Yes. Any extra customization option at the start would be interesting to increase replayability.

Honestly, people should learn to respect people´s taste. I´m not asking to remove your orange. I´m asking for the game to have oranges AND apples. It´s not something like the division commanders which is way more difficult to make as an starting option as it messes balance at an even more fundamental level (at least if it was HOI 3 style OOB).

I'm sorry but this is just a silly argument. What you're saying is that essentially Paradox, instead of only making one map (which they have enough trouble getting right as it is) make and test multiple maps, each of which will necessarily have different game files and different rules (such as different stacking penalties etc.). Playing on entirely different maps is not "customisation" as far as HOI is concerned - it's playing a different game.

Please give up with these silly requests to return to HOI2 - HOI4 will (thank god) be a much more advanced game. If you want to play HOI2, just go ahead and play it - no-one's stopping you.

 

[Jazumir]

There are some issues, i think, with beaga´s suggestion, but not insurmountable ones, i suppose, trying to have an optional ´region-based´-game:

- terrain would need to be partial, as in: 30%woods, 20%hills, 50%flat, or whatnot, in order to be able to combine the value of provine-properties into a regional one, in a sensible way.
- borders might need to be rechecked, as to determine riverlines and such. This *might* limit this to a ´permanent´ option, requiring a restart of the game (and not just the current match) for a switch.
- other province-properties need to be combined in different ways. Factories simply add up, while infra is appoximized, for example.
- for approximized installments the price need to be asjusted (raised), for balance.
- ranges for all effects (RADAR, et al) must strictly be kept in km, not provinces (except for when it is ´1´, maybe), as unit of measurement.
- some buttons might need a check wether to appear or not based on game-scale-setting (e.g.: choose-by-province target-selector for aircraft)

The AI logic *should* be applicable unchanged, pretty much.

EDIT: Maybe DLC-stuff? I might buy, cause it could be a way for me to finally get some buddies back into some private MP-ing HoI (who might then in turn buy both, game and DLC - :O ).

EDIT: Hey, ´mainstreamers´ are okay, if they pay for the ´grognard´-content first, before they get their ´lite´-version, right? ;D

 

[Jazumir]

[...]
I'm sorry but this is just a silly argument. What you're saying is that essentially Paradox, instead of only making one map (which they have enough trouble getting right as it is) make and test multiple maps, each of which will necessarily have different game files and different rules (such as different stacking penalties etc.). Playing on entirely different maps is not "customisation" as far as HOI is concerned - it's playing a different game.
[...]

Stacking and frontline adjustment would be a matter of setting a couble of multipliers. The regions are already mapped out. As i said, i think a DLC with this would not only sell well by itself, it might also widen HoI4 overall audience and boost the main game sales, considerably. You might be right, that it would be too much effort to implement in the main-game on day1 - but i do think that if the effort were to be done and sold seperately, it could be well worth it.

 

[FOARP]

It's really sad.
When I first time installed HoI-3 I was shocked about number of provinces. But I continued to study the game!
But when I made ZOOM.... and saw each province have 3-4 small provinces in it, I in furious deleted the game
For these years I several times made it again. Install HoI-3, ZOOM, furious and deleting the game.

I so hoped about HoI-4 (

I'm sorry, but this is just a ludicrous response - deleting the game because of the province number without playing.

Here's the point on which I agree with Beaga and the others - HOI3 suffered from excessive micromanagement. However, in reality province number wasn't the real probelm causing this - the arcane and illogical supply system, guerilla warfare whack-a-mole, researching endless incremental technologies, shuffling production sliders etc. were far greater in-game time-wastes.

Imagine if, after HOI1, I had said that the solution to HOI1's excessive micromanagement (and it was excessive) was to simply reduce the number of provinces in-game? Wouldn't you think this ridiculous given that the micro wasn't cause by province number but by, for example, having to carry out reinforcement manually and having to order airstrikes individually? Well, now you know how I think about your insistence on reducing the province number for HOI4.

Stacking and frontline adjustment would be a matter of setting a couble of multipliers. The regions are already mapped out. As i said, i think a DLC with this would not only sell well by itself, it might also widen HoI4 overall audience and boost the main game sales, considerably. You might be right, that it would be too much effort to implement in the main-game on day1 - but i do think that if the effort were to be done and sold seperately, it could be well worth it.

Yes, I can see it now: we can call it the "Pointlessly Cripple The Game To Satisfy HOI2 Fabois" DLC. Why not just play HOI2, if that's the game you want to play?

If it's as easy as you say, then just mod the map yourself. Something makes me think that such a mod wouldn't be very popular though, seeing as how it would greatly reduce the intricacy of the maneouvres you can carry out for no gain in any other area.

 

[Jazumir]

See, FOARP, most of the time i agree with you - but on this, i think, your position is testimony just of how much you have been involved with HoI. Because, for a newcomer, someone with the intention to have a relaxed evening, possibly after hard-grinding work, the reactions to the first sight of the map and after that the first scroll in, that i have seen, match those descibed by Nick3210 pretty well. Where you clap and rub your hands with a big fun-anticipating smile on your face, these people shudder and simply feel overwhelmed and even intimidated. It gives an impression on how long it will take to even start playing this perceived monster of a game, let alone finish one match. There are people, who do not want to make it an important part of their lives - and we´ll have to face that. In fact, by offering ´lite´-DLCs, we could all profit from it. PI gets additional sales, we get your grognard-version first, and people who before would not have played the game might enjoy the fun even if on not quite the scale the ´original fanbase´ prefers.

Personally, i would probably play the big version in SP, and the small version in MP, preferably. Assuming i could talk at least one of my real-life friends into it (because of the reduced scale), i´d probably pay another 20 or so, for it. If the maingame is on sale by then, for say another 20, that´s 60 (2xDLC, 1xgame at discount) extra for PI (well, yeah, i know, not quite...). Just saying...

 

[fabius]

Here's the point on which I agree with Beaga and the others - HOI3 suffered from excessive micromanagement. However, in reality province number wasn't the real probelm causing this - the arcane and illogical supply system, guerilla warfare whack-a-mole , researching endless incremental technologies, shuffling production sliders etc. were far greater in-game time-wastes.

...seeing as how it would greatly reduce the intricacy of the maneouvres you can carry out for no gain in any other area.

That's a good point. The excessive micro on almost non-gaming elements start to be a chore.

 

[FOARP]

See, FOARP, most of the time i agree with you - but on this, i think, your position is testimony just of how much you have been involved with HoI. Because, for a newcomer, someone with the intention to have a relaxed evening, possibly after hard-grinding work, the reactions to the first sight of the map and after that the first scroll in, that i have seen, match those descibed by Nick3210 pretty well. Where you clap and rub your hands with a big fun-anticipating smile on your face, these people shudder and simply feel overwhelmed and even intimidated. It gives an impression on how long it will take to even start playing this perceived monster of a game, let alone finish one match. There are people, who do not want to make it an important part of their lives - and we´ll have to face that. In fact, by offering ´lite´-DLCs, we could all profit from it. PI gets additional sales, we get your grognard-version first, and people who before would not have played the game might enjoy the fun even if on not quite the scale the ´original fanbase´ prefers.

Personally, i would probably play the big version in SP, and the small version in MP, preferably. Assuming i could talk at least one of my real-life friends into it (because of the reduced scale), i´d probably pay another 20 or so, for it.

I think what you're talking about there really is a different game for a different audience - you want a game to appeal to the guys who will just load this up on their iPad whilst at the airport and so-forth. Panzer Korps for the iPad from Slitherine/Matrix is good for this, but even they had to release what was basically a different game to the desktop version for Windows.

I'm sure Paradox have thought about doing something for the tablet and mobile markets - but HOI4 isn't going to be it (do you see iOS in the supported operating systems?), and can't be it without compromising massively on replayability and gameplay values on the desktop market.

This isn't me being a purist and looking down on "casual gamers", but simply recognizing that a game for playing short-term on platforms like the iPad is necessarily much different to that for the desktop market.

That's a good point. The excessive micro on almost non-gaming elements start to be a chore.

Yup, and that micro doesn't go away or even change significantly if you reduce the number of provinces.