Number of EU4 players rapidly dropping compared to CK2

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RMcD94

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Frankly, what I miss in EU4 most, isn't character development. We have a game for that already. It's called "the sims".

No, what I'd like to see is a first-person musket shooter. You could play as part of a unit of pike, or a line of musket infantry.

Beware the cannon, is all I say.

It can't be too hard to implement. They already have a game that sortof does this, and the code should be easily ported with a few weeks of coding at most.

I know this, because I once programmed my C64 using BASIC I copied from the back of a gaming magazine.

I assume this is aimed at me but seriously if we're literally just talking about CK2 in EU4 then they already built CK2. And no one is suggesting it would take a few weeks. And to compare Mount&Blade to CK2 and EU4 is absurd. They're in the same goddamn engine. If you don't understand why it's significantly easier to develop on the same engine then I don't know what to say.

There's a scale of easiness here, no one is suggesting that coding a dynastic system is like coding a flag change mod, but it's not anywhere near coding first person action game in the Clausewitz Engine (I'm not sure that would be possible). They already made a dynastic system. They're not starting from scratch here.

---

Again, that is not to say that porting CK2 into EU4 is a good idea at all. Just that adding character development is easy.

Also your comment about the Sims being where you can get character development is kind of absurd. After all, we might as well remove battles from EU4 since you can get battles in other games right?
 

Slargos

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So War of The Roses Renaissance edition?

What? NO!

It has to be in EU4. EU4 desperately needs all the features of that other game you speak of. Why should there be two separate games when one game could do all these things at once?

We all know how great games are that attempt to do everything at once.

It is only lazyness that keep those idiots at PI from giving us a tactical, grand strategy musket combat simulator with character development.

And lockpicking mini games.
 

Slargos

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That is the biggest reason I'm not playing. That and XCOM ENEMY WITHIN which is taking up every spare moment of my life. Help me.

Is it good?

I felt that they gave XCOM the cargo cult treatment.

All the features were there, it's just that nothing was really working, you know.. it's like they looked Fun straight in the eyes, and kicked it in the balls.
 

MrLebanon

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:Is there anybody so benighted they wouldn't welcome these features?

As a huge fan of CK2, I don't want those features in EUIV. That's when we get into the realm of sameness... I don't want paradox strategy games to become the Call of Duty of strategy, every iteration more of the same.

EUIV and CK2 both have appealing features, I think the two features together will be overwhelmingly bloated and have an end product of a game that is unfocussed.
 

unmerged(780209)

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Yes. I don't want any of those things. I don't want EU4 to be a clone of CK2 (and I'm not the only one who's expressed that sentiment). EU originated as a board game, it still feels more like a board game, and I want it to stay that way. One can argue that various gameplay abstractions are better or worse, more or less appropriate as models for various real-life things that they model, but this particular gameplay system's level of abstraction is precisely right.

Then you are one of those people who doesn't like CKII. Fine. You're in a small minority though. CKII is just a much more popular game. Most people like me would never have played this game unless they'd first tried CKII.

That is the usual port -- tried CKII. Liked it. Wanted more. Saw EUIV. Tried it. It's okay, but not as good for the reasons I elaborated.

And no, you're flat wrong. Incorporating some of the programming they've already developed from CKII would not be this monumental feat you imagine it to be.

They already did the work designing and balancing the game for CKII. It works fine, in case you didn't know.
 

unmerged(780209)

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As a huge fan of CK2, I don't want those features in EUIV. That's when we get into the realm of sameness... I don't want paradox strategy games to become the Call of Duty of strategy, every iteration more of the same.

EUIV and CK2 both have appealing features, I think the two features together will be overwhelmingly bloated and have an end product of a game that is unfocussed.

You don't have to have every aspect of CKII in this game you know.

But, these boards are filled with endless posts pointing out that this game is just bland and there are endless problems with the boring endgame, and that there's not that much to do between wars, that the same countries seem to come out on top most of the time, that stasis tends to set in and not much changes despite endless wars, and that it lacks the personal feel of CKII that made that game interesting even when you are at peace and not undertaking any big initiative.

Hence, change a few features of the interface to include things like a Dynasty screen. What would that harm?

"Bloated"! Yeah, right. As if the 1000 features of this game don't already make it the most "bloated" game I have ever played, bar none. If you can put up with having to consult the wiki just to figure out how vassalization and the trade system really work and endless posts to discover what a sensible strategy for your country is, etc., etc., then a few additional features are certainly not going to make that much of a difference. :excl:

Personally, if they release a CK game that covers this era, I will drop this game for that in a heart-beat.

I'm not alone either.
 

RMcD94

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Just adding a dynasty/government map mode would be an incredible step in the right direction. I hate having to manually go down the disputed succession list. It's so dull, and I have to hover over the king every time to see if it's weak heir, pu on death, noble on death, succession war on death. And I have to see their age.
 

calvinhobbeslik

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You don't have to have every aspect of CKII in this game you know.

But, these boards are filled with endless posts pointing out that this game is just bland and there are endless problems with the boring endgame, and that there's not that much to do between wars, that the same countries seem to come out on top most of the time, that stasis tends to set in and not much changes despite endless wars, and that it lacks the personal feel of CKII that made that game interesting even when you are at peace and not undertaking any big initiative.

Hence, change a few features of the interface to include things like a Dynasty screen. What would that harm?

"Bloated"! Yeah, right. As if the 1000 features of this game don't already make it the most "bloated" game I have ever played, bar none. If you can put up with having to consult the wiki just to figure out how vassalization and the trade system really work and endless posts to discover what a sensible strategy for your country is, etc., etc., then a few additional features are certainly not going to make that much of a difference. :excl:

Personally, if they release a CK game that covers this era, I will drop this game for that in a heart-beat.

I'm not alone either.

Right, because I'm sure you can play CK2 without ever consulting the wiki...
 

unmerged(780209)

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I assume this is aimed at me but seriously if we're literally just talking about CK2 in EU4 then they already built CK2. And no one is suggesting it would take a few weeks. And to compare Mount&Blade to CK2 and EU4 is absurd. They're in the same goddamn engine. If you don't understand why it's significantly easier to develop on the same engine then I don't know what to say.

This. It was only after I re-read your post that I realized some posters are actually not taking that into account.

It's the same engine which means the programming isn't going to be a complete re-engineering as it would be to try and do the same thing from a different engine.
 

Embraer

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All the people crying about EUIV do so because they can't conquer the whole world.

Guess what? That was always a MAJOR flaw of previous EU games. Sorry you were able to get away with it for so long.

This isn't Total War or some other "light" game. Paradox games tend to replicate history and real life much more than most games even attempt.

No, you can't conquer the world without MASSIVE consequences. Want real world examples? Napoleon and Hitler for starters. That is how the world works...this isn't a board game of Risk you are playing.

Get over it. EUIV is a great game and will improve even more with future patches and expansions.
 

unmerged(780209)

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Right, because I'm sure you can play CK2 without ever consulting the wiki...
I'm not the one who considers either game "bloated." Nor would I throw up my hands if either had a few more features. So, what has that got to do with it?

I watched a bunch of videos playthroughs and how-tos before I tried my first country at CKII. Why not?

I don't think adding aspects of CKII to this game would make it noticeably more complex than it already is.

If you can't handle a complex game with a fairly steep learning curve, you're not going to like either game. Period.
 

unmerged(780209)

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All the people crying about EUIV do so because they can't conquer the whole world.

Guess what? That was always a MAJOR flaw of previous EU games. Sorry you were able to get away with it for so long.

This isn't Total War or some other "light" game. Paradox games tend to replicate history and real life much more than most games even attempt.

No, you can't conquer the world without MASSIVE consequences. Want real world examples? Napoleon and Hitler for starters. That is how the world works...this isn't a board game of Risk you are playing.

Get over it. EUIV is a great game and will improve even more with future patches and expansions.

This is just amusing!

The arrogant conflating of anybody who criticizes any aspect of this game with "you just want to conquer the world and it's too hard so you're a whiner, go back to Total War Series, wimp!"

Actually, I've never even tried for a WC in either EUIII or EUIV. I've played trading and colonizing powers like Portugal and Netherlands exclusively in this game because I find fighting endless wars for more and more provinces rather boring, especially in the late game, when the prospects for doing anything significant becomes more and more problematic.

I frankly don't think it will ever matter at all in my play-throughs if world conquest is possible or not. I'll probably never try paint the entire globe one color.

I do think it ought to be possible for players who want that sort of thing. And I don't think the game design that penalizes players with ridiculous AE based coalition wars, and the disappearing cores problems are good design features.
 

Duruial

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Just started playing CK2 again because of the new DLC. I hadn't been playing either EUIV or CK2 for awhile because ya know... there are other games to play! But the expansion brought me back into CK2 like it has done each time in the past to give me my 600+ hours of time lost in Dynastic Politics. I am also hugely excited for EUIV, so while I stopped playing EUIV it doesn't mean I stopped playing EUIV! It just means that I am waiting on Conquest of Paradise to be released before I dive back in.

This is just how I play the games and how I think a lot of people play them. You dive in, lose countless hours enjoying the game, and after a bit you back out and do other stuff... then just when you start to think "Hmmm... I wonder if Paradox has anything new in the work" you check the forum and see an awesome new DLC and boom you are back in.
 

mcmanusaur

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:Is there anybody who would say: "I don't want a Dynasty Screen" with portraits of every person in my Dynasty, where I can see my entire family tree and any royal families who are part of my dynasty in other countries? Where you could plot and scheme to insert your children into other dynasties to strengthen your royal ties, or achieve a personal union?

Didn't the Hapsburgs do exactly that during this period of history?

Does anybody say "it wouldn't be an improvement if you could shop around for royal brides for your heir, and each potential bride came with attributes that would help or hinder your heir in different ways?"

Is there anybody here who thinks "I don't want to be able to educate my heir and improve his attributes?"

Does anybody think that assassination and more intrigue would suck? (outside of the Covert Ideas which are so underpowered nobody bothers with them just not a real part of EUIV)?

What about having an expanded ruling council with a lot more than 3 advisers?

Remember that in EUIII you could choose advisers from different courts when they became available. Why was that eliminated? Now you're just stuck with the same pool of useless chodes for decades on end.

Would it be bad to be able to increase your prestige or legitimacy by such things as holding feasts, etc?

The game would just be a lot more fun even without wars. And expanded diplomatic options would make it less necessary to fight endless wars for expanding 1 or 2 provinces. ZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. :closedeyes:

Is there anybody so benighted they wouldn't welcome these features?

I think that EU IV only needs a boiled-down-to-the-essentials version of such expanded diplomatic and dynastic features; currently there's nothing of the sort present in any form. Adding all the things you mention would probably end up as bloated overkill, but I agree with the general gist.
 

Aethelred

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Many good points have been made in my opinion.

Like others, I think that not implementing some aspects of CKII's design was a big mistake. While CK focuses on the concrete and personal, EU is all about abstraction and structures. Therefore, it is by definition less immersive and less alive. It feels dusted. It makes a huge difference if you get to see faces in a game or not. In EU, you don't interact with faces, but with "national ideas", maintainance sliders, national stability, etc. etc.

And not only that it is less immersive. In my opinion it is also less "realistic". EU feels a bit as if it has been created by 19th century historians, obsessed with retrojecting the modern nation-state back to centuries where it doesn't belong. Early modern states/monarchies depended primarily on groups of persons, and this is precisely why a person-centered/RPG approach would have been more realistic. The personal element still prevailed over organisatorial-bureaucratical structures, which seem to be the basis for most abstract mechanisms in EU. Also, the "stability"-mechanic cannot even give you a faint hint of the multifaceted and exciting conflicts that took place in (composite) monarchies, primarily between the crown and the estates (groups of local aristocrats). Not even to speak of the complete lack of courts as the theatre where personal interaction took place.

Of course, for a game focused on personal interaction in the early modern period, relationships between persons/characters should not be restricted to what we today would call "private" (i.e. determined a lot by "character traits", like in CK II). Instead, the challenge would be to combine private with political interests.

Some time ago, I came up with a huge wall of text on what such a system could have looked like (although this might have been overly complex): Brainstorm on Courts, Factions, Nobility. And it's also clear that one would have to reconsider the scope of the game. You can't fill the whole world with characters and agents...

I also don't think that "historical events" are a way to make the game more interesting. I'd prefer to write my own history, a history that emerges from the incalculable constellations and actions of characters in the world.
 

johnnyb

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Is it good?

I felt that they gave XCOM the cargo cult treatment.

All the features were there, it's just that nothing was really working, you know.. it's like they looked Fun straight in the eyes, and kicked it in the balls.

If you didn't like enemy unknown, then you won't like enemy within. However, enemy unknown was one of my favorite games ever and enemy within is definitely even better.
 

C.N.

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:
Does anybody think that assassination and more intrigue would suck? (outside of the Covert Ideas which are so underpowered nobody bothers with them just not a real part of EUIV)?

Yes, it would suck as hard as Medieval: Total War. No ruler with good stat would stay alive, everyone would be playing with crap monarchs that the AI wouldn't bother to assassinate.
 

JimboOmega

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Jun 22, 2004
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CK2 is extremely easy. Paradox hit the jackpot with a game for the masses.

Europa Universalis is not a game for the masses. It has its own niche market. If you really want achievements, play something else. I personally don't really like the direction the game is turning to: religious conversions in 5 months, cores wherever you want, cultural conversions (wtf!!!!).

I really love all of those things. EUIV is really, really good. I'm shocked how good a state it is in before the first expansion is even out. I've been playing paradox games for almost a decade, and have been through many, many, big mess releases. There are several big and small changes that just make the game way better; I'm shocked. It's in the state that most games are in only after 2 or 3 expansions.

And getting rid of the bizarre MTTH based culture spread is way high on my list of things that I really enjoy. Specifically making so many of these require a limited resource (admin points) rather than just waiting for randomness.

BTW, what's this great core bug that everyone keeps talking about?

And how do you know how many people are playing a game?