Number balancing

[Lopus1969]

Where is HBS pulling the numbers of the weapons and mechs from?

They've changed the damage of the lighter autocannons (upgraded), increased the heat of lasers (nerfing), reducing crit spaces in arms and side torsos while increasing legs and center torsos.

I guess I could understand the multiplication of damage (and armor) by 5 and heat by 3, IF it were bloody consistent, but nope, it's like they have biases for (and against) certain equipment.

Movement conversion is haphazard at best considering the speed of the Spider and the Shadow Hawk, the walk of the Spider should equal the run of the Shadow Hawk, but it doesn't, it tapers off at 1 "hex" per 3 turns (yes I have been playing this game too much I think.)

To make matters worse, the "SLDF" mechs that you get to play in the campaign are pretty much all impossible builds (base tonnages don't make sense, incredible # of DHS in the legs, etc etc), I mean come on, let the conversion be consistent.

 

[LemurFromTheId]

Where is HBS pulling the numbers of the weapons and mechs from?

From the experience gathered from testing the game and from player feedback, I would guess.

Do you have some specific complaints beyond just things being subtly different from tabletop? Why are the changes such a bad thing?

 

[Lopus1969]

From the experience gathered from testing the game and from player feedback, I would guess.

Do you have some specific complaints beyond just things being subtly different from tabletop? Why are the changes such a bad thing?

Okay, they bumped up the AC/2 in a major way (damage is x12.5 and heat is x3 from the tabletop) whereas the medium laser was nerfed (damage is x5 and heat is x4), even worse, replay the campaign and then check out the Black Knight, notice the three (3) double heat sinks PER leg, where and how are they fitting there? I could go on, but I'm still listing the issues.

 

[LemurFromTheId]

Okay, they bumped up the AC/2 in a major way (damage is x12.5 and heat is x3 from the tabletop) whereas the medium laser was nerfed (damage is x5 and heat is x4), even worse, replay the campaign and then check out the Black Knight, notice the three (3) double heat sinks PER leg, where and how are they fitting there? I could go on, but I'm still listing the issues.

So... why are these changes a bad thing again?

 

[Lopus1969]

Because they aren't consistent, perhaps they could explain why they did it.

 

[stjobe]

Because they aren't consistent, perhaps they could explain why they did it.

They did, all the way back in the Kickstarter:

"Our goal is to craft a combat system for BATTLETECH that’s the perfect blend of tactical depth, speed of play, and meaningful unit customization. As we did with our Shadowrun games, we intend to capture the *spirit* of the original tabletop rules, while designing the best PC game we can."
- https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/webeharebrained/battletech

But to lay it out as clearly as I can: The numbers aren't consistent because they're trying to balance the game. The AC/2 was easily the worst of the ballistic weapons in TT, and possibly the worst weapon period (unless you played with AeroTech, when it was a holy scourge of flyers). It got buffed in this game to where people can use it (some even exclusively) throughout the campaign.

Likewise, the medium laser didn't get a buff (which is not the same as getting nerfed) because it may well be the best weapon in the entire game already.

So the answer to most of your questions is simply "game balance", but some might also be "it's a bug" or "for storytelling reasons". This isn't a port of the TT game, things will get/have been tweaked in the name of fun and game balance if the devs think it's necessary.

 

[Lopus1969]

I would beg to disagree with your statement that the medium laser didn't get a nerf, the heat/damage ratio was changed from 3 heat for 5 damage (tt) or 9 heat for 25 damage (straight line conversion) to 12 heat for 25 damage (almost 50% heat/damage ratio), whereas the AC/2 popgun (which was entirely a joke in tt) rose from 1 heat for 2 damage or 3 heat for 10 damage (straight conversion) to 4 heat for 25 damage (about 16% heat/damage ratio). Is it more "fun"? In what sense? I suppose that the devs "just said so." However, I truly cannot fathom these changes as "more fun".

 

[stjobe]

Is it more "fun"? In what sense? I suppose that the devs "just said so." However, I truly cannot fathom these changes as "more fun".

Is the game fun? If so, there's your answer. Would it be more fun with straight TT conversions, well that's debatable of course. Just remember when debating the issue that the devs were very clear right from square one that this would never be a straight TT conversion.

Anyway, if the values bug you too much, just go to <SteamLibrary>\steamapps\common\BATTLETECH\BattleTech_Data\StreamingAssets\data\weapon and change the values to something you like better. Remember to save a copy of your edited files so they don't get overwritten on the next patch.

 

[Ben G]

The movement range was also deliberately compressed. 4/6 Mechs are “right”. The further a mech gets from 4/6 the more it is buffed or nerfed. So Urbanmechs and Locusts/Spiders are the most effected.

All I the Mechs originally had TT movement exactly, but HBS playtested it and decided this worked better in their game.

You are free to disagree with their choices, obviously. There goal was to do what they thought led to the best game, and changed TT numbers when they felt they made the game less fun.

 

[scJazz]

I would beg to disagree with your statement that the medium laser didn't get a nerf, the heat/damage ratio was changed from 3 heat for 5 damage (tt) or 9 heat for 25 damage (straight line conversion) to 12 heat for 25 damage (almost 50% heat/damage ratio), whereas the AC/2 popgun (which was entirely a joke in tt) rose from 1 heat for 2 damage or 3 heat for 10 damage (straight conversion) to 4 heat for 25 damage (about 16% heat/damage ratio). Is it more "fun"? In what sense? I suppose that the devs "just said so." However, I truly cannot fathom these changes as "more fun".

The differences between TT and BATTLETECH are by no means arbitrary. Thousands of players, tens of thousands of posts, and hundreds of thousands of games have been played. The level of feedback HBS received is mind-blowing.

That is how the values were determined and the fun level was set.
However, if you want you can mod the values to be whatever you feel is fun. Or head over to Nexusmods and search for a mod that someone else has already written. I'm sure there is one in there somewhere.

 

[Jade_Rook]

You are correct that in general damage is 5x TT values and heat is 3x. There have been a few changes to improve balance and make all weapons useful, but all of the values initially came from tabletop.

The AC/2, AC/5, and AC/10 received damage increases. All of these weapons were seen as underperforming in TT.
The Medium Laser and PPC have had their heat increased. This is from the change the heat scale and as a balancing measure. The medium laser is still the most efficient weapon out there in terms of damage per ton (other than the weapons with no range).
The Large Laser actually had its heat decreased. At launch the heat was higher, but it was reduced because the consensus was that it was too hot to be useful.
Missiles have their damage multiplied by 4 instead of by 5. This is because the cluster hits table was removed. The lower damage compensates for the higher number of expected hits.

Sprinting is not the Run speed. Walk and Run have been combined into a single Walk Move action. Sprint is closer to the optional TT Sprint rule (double walk speed with no attacks).

The SLDF mechs have extra tonnage because they are likely using ferro-fiberous armor and/or endo steel. Rather than being separate components, the weight savings is rolled into the base weight available for those mechs. As I recall, the tonnages allowed are correct, or close to it.

I don't know why the Black Knight has all those double heat sinks in the legs. It looks like a mistake, but a harmless one considering that mech is only in one specific mission.

 

[stjobe]

Walk and Run have been combined into a single Walk Move action.

Minor correction.

 

[Jade_Rook]

Minor correction.

Fixed, thank you!

 

[Yeach]

About auto cannons...
They should rename them
(Instead of AC2/5/10/20) to

AC5, AC8, AC12 and AC20...

 

[CSM101]

To make matters worse, the "SLDF" mechs that you get to play in the campaign are pretty much all impossible builds (base tonnages don't make sense, incredible # of DHS in the legs, etc etc), I mean come on, let the conversion be consistent.

In the case of this one, I think it was due to there being only hardcoded SHS in the engines of all mechs in the game, rather than swappable to DHS, and the Royal variants had top of the line Star League era technology, so therefore DHS in the engine. Hence the excess of DHS in every slot of those mechs to make up the missing heat dissipation that should have been there.

 

[Camicon Dachass]

In the case of this one, I think it was due to there being only hardcoded SHS in the engines of all mechs in the game, rather than swappable to DHS, and the Royal variants had top of the line Star League era technology, so therefore DHS in the engine. Hence the excess of DHS in every slot of those mechs to make up the missing heat dissipation that should have been there.

It would be a fairly simple matter to give SLDF 'Mech chassis DHS in the engine; the chassis .jsons have a line for it, in fact, line 23. Not giving the SLDF 'Mechs DHS in the engine was an intentional decision.

(my memory insists Jordan has said that he isn't entirely fond of how DHS enabled the power creep that started when the Clans came in, and requiring DHS to take up critical space and tonnage outside of the engine was a way to claw that back a little; but for the life of me I can't remember where I read that, so don't hold me to it)

 

[CSM101]

It would be a fairly simple matter to give SLDF 'Mech chassis DHS in the engine; the chassis .jsons have a line for it, in fact, line 23. Not giving the SLDF 'Mechs DHS in the engine was an intentional decision.

(my memory insists Jordan has said that he isn't entirely fond of how DHS enabled the power creep that started when the Clans came in, and requiring DHS to take up critical space and tonnage outside of the engine was a way to claw that back a little; but for the life of me I can't remember where I read that, so don't hold me to it)

I wasn't aware of the json line for that, but I definitely remember Jordan mentioning it on one of the devstreams.

Would be interesting to go and enable that on a couple of the hotter Mechs and see what difference it makes, though.

 

[Camicon Dachass]

I wasn't aware of the json line for that, but I definitely remember Jordan mentioning it on one of the devstreams.

Would be interesting to go and enable that on a couple of the hotter Mechs and see what difference it makes, though.

Fair warning, I haven't actually tested the variable myself, but it seems to me that changing the "Heatsinks" variable on a chassis from 0 to, say, 10, would give that chassis ten more internal heat sinks.

 

[Havamal]

(my memory insists Jordan has said that he isn't entirely fond of how DHS enabled the power creep that started when the Clans came in, and requiring DHS to take up critical space and tonnage outside of the engine was a way to claw that back a little; but for the life of me I can't remember where I read that, so don't hold me to it)

It was from the video Q&A session, I think the one with Randall.
I don't recall if it was actually Jordan who said that but that's the session it was from iirc

 

[ronhatch]

Fair warning, I haven't actually tested the variable myself, but it seems to me that changing the "Heatsinks" variable on a chassis from 0 to, say, 10, would give that chassis ten more internal heat sinks.

Yeah, we tried that back in the beta... the code isn't active, so it doesn't do anything.

(But you're welcome to give it a try yourself.)

A common problem we run into with mods is that HBS does not appear to have ever done any clean-up passes to remove unused variables from the JSON files. The "ExperimentalGrid", for example, must be on or the game will crash... despite the fact that early versions of the game did not use a hex grid at all. They never even renamed the variable to remove the "Experimental" qualifier. Once they decided to use the grid, the code simply moved on in ways that didn't get noticed because they only have time to test the game they actually shipped... so turn it back off and things break horribly.

I'd bet good money that one of the very early versions of the code used the TT rules for how many heat sinks fit in an engine and so they simply made it a variable in the chassis file to avoid having to compute the number... then when they decided to simplify those rules, that variable wasn't needed and got removed from the code but not the chassis file template.

Edit: Well, technically the game still runs without the hex grid... I just couldn't ever get a mech to move anywhere. So depending on your definition of "crashing"...