Nukes!

[Cpack]

The thing about nukes and the terror bombings is that they are viewed in different lights in history. Nuclear Weapons were a major turning point in history which was hugely significant whereas the terrorbombings were used to demoralize the opposition and to "prevent any future wars by example".
Much like a topic that must not be mentioned, this is off limits.

Don't you think that the nukes were build for exactly the same thing: "....were used to demoralize the opposition and to "prevent any future wars by example".

 

[unmerged(28080)]

However it's handeled I think there needs to be a "disable nuclear weapons" button. Imo they ruin the game.

I'm not interested in putting a lot of effort into a game that ends with a couple nukes then I win. They have to really nerf them from HoI1 for me to consider using them.

I agree.

Historically aside, there is also the fun factor of the game that is impostant.
I recently played a game as the Russians. I was starting to get the upper hand by 44 and pushed into ex Poland and the Balkans when I get the Message Berlin was nuked and then Hannover was nuked. I quite the game, very annoyed.

 

[unmerged(10750)]

In part this is a conceptual issue. first off, if you try to pack in say, 120 infantry divisions into a province like Stalingrad (which the Soviets did in my last game), that a pretty tight fit. dropping a nuke would certainly make all of them non-combatants in a hurry.

Sure, but it would have the same effect if you dropped that nuke on 120 divisions in a Central Asian province, or in Nebraska. Certainly, a military unit shouldn't survive being in a city that gets nuked, but the province is usually more than just a city.

secondly, when a unit dies, it's not just all KIA. It means that the unit has lost all of its combat effectiveness, to the point it can't be rebuilt in the field. Dropping a nuke on a province, given the abstractions, would effectively eliminate the command aparatus, supply depots, poison food and water, destroy lots of equipment, and cause severe damage to the soldiers (not all of it immediate). This would reduce the capabilities of those units to zero. A child with a BB gun could steam roll them then. As such, those units are effectively "dead" in game terms.

I don't think that simply removing the units from the board is a good way to simulate what you're talking about. If, for instance, the nuke had the effect of dropping the ORG of all units in the province to zero (an effect I would agree with), that, coupled with the resultant drop in province infra, would probably simulate the losses pretty effectively without making the bomb too powerful or too complicated.

Third is what exactly a single game nuke represents. Is it one bomb? Two? Five? this has never been clearly stated AFAIK, and no matter what ratio you go with, it presents problems. If it's only one, then they are generally way over powered, especially as regards some provinces. If it's more than one, then they are under powered as regards certain provinces.

I always assumed it was just one.

If people were just dropping nukes on small urban provinces (Paris, Berlin, Moscow, etc.) I probably wouldn't have any problem with the military losses that resulted. But instead they're being used for the specific purposes of knocking out big stacks, which is IMHO unrealistic and basically just an exploit.

 

[JRaup]

Sure, but it would have the same effect if you dropped that nuke on 120 divisions in a Central Asian province, or in Nebraska. Certainly, a military unit shouldn't survive being in a city that gets nuked, but the province is usually more than just a city.

I agree actually. But the way the abstraction works, while the province may be huge, the effective area is the main city. It's a flaw in the way Paradox abstracted some things out. The way nukes work in game is more tactical than strategic. In part due to the flaw in the abstraction.

I don't think that simply removing the units from the board is a good way to simulate what you're talking about. If, for instance, the nuke had the effect of dropping the ORG of all units in the province to zero (an effect I would agree with), that, coupled with the resultant drop in province infra, would probably simulate the losses pretty effectively without making the bomb too powerful or too complicated.

But it would need to be more than just a reduction of ORG to 0. It's more than that in game terms. There would need to be a loss of strength as well. And the problem becomes that if a unit is in a "home province" it won't lose strength due to low infra. So, as Germany say, nuking anything in Russia wouldn't be worth the effort. Nor would it be really to nuke Japan as teh USA.

I always assumed it was just one.

If people were just dropping nukes on small urban provinces (Paris, Berlin, Moscow, etc.) I probably wouldn't have any problem with the military losses that resulted. But instead they're being used for the specific purposes of knocking out big stacks, which is IMHO unrealistic and basically just an exploit.

I originally thought it was a 1:1 ratio for nukes. But over the past year or so of fiddling with the game, I'm not so sure anymore.

Going back to my first response, the flaw in teh way things were abstracted has made nukes tactical rather than strategic weapons. The way the provinces were abstracted, makes nukes far too viable as a tactical weapon system. Plus, with the variance is sizes of teh provinces, there isn't really a "one size fits all" approach instituted in game.

 

[unmerged(10574)]

Don't you think that the nukes were build for exactly the same thing: "....were used to demoralize the opposition and to "prevent any future wars by example".

I answeared that in my previous post but to recap

NUKE = Crucial part of History
Terror Bombings = Part of History we'd like to forget

 

[Adam B.]

I answeared that in my previous post but to recap

NUKE = Crucial part of History
Terror Bombings = Part of History we'd like to forget

Well the second isn't allowed in this game ...

So I think Nukes should also not be ingame.

Or abstracted in events; such as the former.

 

[unmerged(11117)]

Besides, wouldn't the nuclear fallout eventually kill all the people in the units? All the survivors would be mutated ...

So ?

Research Zombie Tech (Infantry Tech Tree, subdivision) and launch the Dawn of the Dead invasion of the States !

 

[Adam B.]

So ?

Research Zombie Tech (Infantry Tech Tree, subdivision) and launch the Dawn of the Dead invasion of the States !

Who knows what techs would've been available then !

 

[SecondReich]

The idea of shooting down mutated Nazis sounds like a good FPS game, but not really for HOI's genre.

I picture it kind of being like from Robocop, where they run over that mutated melting guy who is screaming "Help me, Help me!"

 

[JRaup]

The idea of shooting down mutated Nazis sounds like a good FPS game, but not really for HOI's genre.

I picture it kind of being like from Robocop, where they run over that mutated melting guy who is screaming "Help me, Help me!"

Already been done. It's called Return to Castle Wolfenstein.

 

[SecondReich]

Already been done. It's called Return to Castle Wolfenstein.

Oh yeah! I remember.

 

[unmerged(26164)]

The enemy never really used them in my game, but if they did they seemed to be in wortless places. and nobody really reacted.

 

[Sirveri]

As far as I know, the only way to lower MP levels in a province in the original HoI was to use a nuke. I could never do it thru strat bombing.

Also, I seem to recall seeing them state that the provinces this go around would be smaller (as that is how Paradox seems to be trending) so the nuke model from HoI1 makes more sense with the said smaller provinces.

As for troops, well actually lets hold off on troops for right now. Lets talk about strength, because these bombs had differant levels of strength, and they should be modeled as such., what I'd like to see is a low level bomb do something like 100 strength damage (and wipe out org) spread out across all units in a province. Maybe that would be the waste bomb. Then step it up substantially for each step. Capping out with the tritium bomb at something like 1000 Str damage (once again randomly spread thru the units in the province. You could probably also apply this number in some way as a strat bomb against the province.

The only problem thus far at this point is the nuclear waste bomb. Since technically that bomb is more like a chemical weapon in that it leaves most of the buildings intact but kills or drives away the population from radiation poisoning... Then again the radiation in the area would probably render the buildings and infastructure just as unusable as a nuke, whereas a chem attack would clear in a relativly short period of time.

I dunno, food for thought.