Steele said:
Really? I hadn't heard that, but that's interesting. Learn something new every day.
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Really? I hadn't heard that, but that's interesting. Learn something new every day.
I was just thinking, maybe you could have an option to use your nukes on strategic or tactical targets.
For example a strategic strike would devastate the provinces infrastructure and industries (60-80 % destroyed), plus a "no improving" time of say 3 months, to represent the radiation and chaos. Also there would be a big dissent hit like others have mentioned to the nuked country. But through this all a military unit in said province would remain unharmed.
Tactical strikes would be used to hit units in the province. I think it should be very random has to how much damage you cause to the enemy, taking into an account that an army could be grouped together or spread out.
For example a strategic strike would devastate the provinces infrastructure and industries (60-80 % destroyed), plus a "no improving" time of say 3 months, to represent the radiation and chaos. Also there would be a big dissent hit like others have mentioned to the nuked country. But through this all a military unit in said province would remain unharmed.
Tactical strikes would be used to hit units in the province. I think it should be very random has to how much damage you cause to the enemy, taking into an account that an army could be grouped together or spread out.
Yeah, I think a tactical nuke and strategic nuke difference would be great. A Tactical nuke would wipe out say 2/3rds of the divisions in a province, or something...
A slow regeneration ... a very slow one.Keledor said:
But the AI's use definitely has to be altered.
Truant said:
Have you read Hiroshima? I think one of the sections in there talks about this...
There should be no automated regeneration of bombed provinces... Let the player rebuild things that have been damaged at a heavy cost, but nothing should rebuild itself.
Steele
Steele said:
I agree, though the current system in HoI simply takes substantially too long to rebuild anything. One IC takes 360 days no matter what but costs completly differing ammounts depending on the level of IC in the province? No chance to speed it up or slow it down with additional resources? Kinda silly if you ask me.
If they don't regenerate then the way to expand IC needs to be overhauled too methinks. Or we could scrap IC for the most part and go to whatever Vicky has (I have yet to see it, it's on the list but I can't pick it up for at least a few months, unless it reaches bargain bin status).
err why no automated rebuild?Not only have I read the book but I live in the city in question in the immediate area effects were great yes.But that was the City not the Prefecture.Kure Fukuyama etc were untouched they were major parts of the area to render the whole area 0 for the effect on one city is not correct.My friends grandfather was sent from Tokyo to Hiroshima to manage the reconstruction** his statue is in Tokyo station** the trams and infra structure was running in a matter of days.Considering the lack of info disseminated at the time some of the conclusions about the moral effects of the bomb are simply self justification .As a previous poster saiid as the US tries to claim that the USSr had no effect on Germans surrender similarly an attempt was and is made to justify the bomb as the one big reason for surrender.Read some Japanese and study documents from the time....Im sorry but the Kwantung army was more on trhe mind of the GHQ than Hiroshima or Nagasaki.The end was the result of a series of events not one.Similarly the bombs at the time destroyed opor renderd inoperable parts of a city they are overpowered at present.The fire bombing was always more effective terror weopan though not as dramatic as a Mushroom cloud.
While I like the idea of a warscore penalty/dissent hit/domestic pressure increased to end the war/etc. ideas that a lot of you have for nukes, there is one problem that I see. What happens if the country being nuked has a nuke too? Would the penalties be as bad for the just nuked country if the nation knew you could turn around and do the same thing back to the country that attacked you with a nuclear bomb?
Also, I think that the penalty should be lowered for each time a nuke is used, no matter which country uses them. Because honestly, if it got to the point where multiple bombs kept being dropped on both sides, people wouldn't care as much that another city was leveled.
Agree/Disagree/Witty third option?
Also, I think that the penalty should be lowered for each time a nuke is used, no matter which country uses them. Because honestly, if it got to the point where multiple bombs kept being dropped on both sides, people wouldn't care as much that another city was leveled.
Agree/Disagree/Witty third option?
Galleblære said:
This is difficult to handle, even in a theoretical concept. For instance, the CORE team has discussed this at length specifically. Now, it may be possible to add in some sort of trigger that would check to see if the results of a nuke have happened (IC 0, INFRA 0, MP 0 ), but that could be open to an exploit, in that a player (or AI) could just use massive regular Strat bombers to achieve the same result. Now, I do agree that a nuke dropping on Berlin would have been devastating, but the key would be if old Adolf was in town or not, along with the rest of the high muckety-mucks. It's not a good idea to compare what transpired with Japan, to what could have happened with Germany, or the UK, or the USA, or even the USSR. Each is so different, that the model would be weak at best.
PriestOfDiscord said:
This is another aspect (one I hadn't originally thought about much). If Japan had the bomb as well, what would Tojo have done after Hiroshima? LA? SF? Honolulu? It would have been MAD for real. Of course, ability to produce more than one bomb would dictate the "winner" and "loser" of such an exchange. And if I want a "I can nuke you more" game, I'll play shadow President. 8)
A while ago I started a thread on the HOI 1 forum placing a what if scenario with German nukes and what everyone seemed to agree on is that the outcome of a nuke dropping in one of the major countries would have widely different effect for each and every one of the majors so a common surrender upon being nuked twice or similar would not be that good IMO
Ghost_dk
Ghost_dk
Re: regeneration: At present, there's a problem in that you have to Nuke-Save-Reload in order for the province infrastructure to come back. If you don't, it stays at zero.
Curiously, I hardly ever use Nukes as a strategic weapon, almost always as a tactical one. I use them to eliminate the huge stacks which the computer will sometimes come up with, and only then if the province I'm bombing isn't of much interest - i.e. low industry and manpower, and usually with very good defensive terrain. Using Nukes is wasteful.
The ai does over-use them if it manages to get them, true, and this needs looking at, but I can surely understand some use of these very powerful weapons by the ai - "I've spent all these resources getting them, now where's the best place to use them?"
I can't support the call for dissent hits against the user - that's putting 21st Century knowledge and attitudes into the heads of mid-20th Century citizens, a very poor fit. I think that the reaction was "Wow! That's awe-ful! Let's celebrate!" not "That's awful - let's got on strike!", for Joe Public.
(There were, of course, exceptions, especially among those 'in the know'.)
I can believe that there would be a reduction in the chances of other countries going to war once Nuclear weapons had been used. Most democratic governments would have blinked at that point, I feel!
Steve.
Curiously, I hardly ever use Nukes as a strategic weapon, almost always as a tactical one. I use them to eliminate the huge stacks which the computer will sometimes come up with, and only then if the province I'm bombing isn't of much interest - i.e. low industry and manpower, and usually with very good defensive terrain. Using Nukes is wasteful.
The ai does over-use them if it manages to get them, true, and this needs looking at, but I can surely understand some use of these very powerful weapons by the ai - "I've spent all these resources getting them, now where's the best place to use them?"
I can't support the call for dissent hits against the user - that's putting 21st Century knowledge and attitudes into the heads of mid-20th Century citizens, a very poor fit. I think that the reaction was "Wow! That's awe-ful! Let's celebrate!" not "That's awful - let's got on strike!", for Joe Public.
(There were, of course, exceptions, especially among those 'in the know'.)
I can believe that there would be a reduction in the chances of other countries going to war once Nuclear weapons had been used. Most democratic governments would have blinked at that point, I feel!
Steve.
I think the dissent would increase as more and more destruction is caused, simply because people (rightly) would fear the end of the world.PriestOfDiscord said:
From what ive gathered so far is that all of you think the current nuke system should change yet no one is capable of coming up with a good alternative.
Lets say we retained the current system but toned the power of the nuke down and created some political effects? In such a situation it would be best to just handle it with events. In HoI1 you needed to look for specific parameters of provinces etc. But whats to say that HoI2 wont be improved and able to realise that the bomb dropped.
What im saying is that its too early to nitpick right now. We should wait until we're better informed on the abilitys of whats probably going to be an updated engine.
Lets say we retained the current system but toned the power of the nuke down and created some political effects? In such a situation it would be best to just handle it with events. In HoI1 you needed to look for specific parameters of provinces etc. But whats to say that HoI2 wont be improved and able to realise that the bomb dropped.
What im saying is that its too early to nitpick right now. We should wait until we're better informed on the abilitys of whats probably going to be an updated engine.
JRaup said:
But in any case, this is a WW2 game that is supposed to reflect (at least partially) what really happened. Japan keeping on fighting despite having all it's homeland blasted to kingdom come is just insane.
Likewise, Germany severly damaged from nuclear attack would in all likelyhood collapse a lot earlier. What would happen if Germany in some scenario managed to develop nukes and bombed the US? What affect would the loss of several major american cities have? I sure dunno, but the likelyhood of their surrender would greatly increase IMO.
There has been so many questions in HoI about how to use them I'd like to see a BIG RED BUTTON that says, "Press here stupid".
SecondReich said:
Well, only two of them were dropped in war so Math Guy has
no statistics ...