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LarryLeica

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I'm trying to start a Nubian game, with some variations using the Beard Designer (nothing drastic), and am getting DoW'd by the Fatmids within 2 months and destroyed by his 12k stack and Mercs versus my not-so-uber stack of 600. Have tried without changes too, and still no difference. I've even married the Sultan's daughter, which doesn't stop him either.

I thought this nonsense was fixed? Or was that only for the AI?

The reason for playing Nubia rather than Axum or Abyssinia is that I can get access to some mercs, a luxury the more southerly kingdoms don't have.

The only possible solution I can see is to change my starting religion to Shia so he can't Holy War. But he still gets de Jure claims on Aswan I think, so may just delay the inevitable.

This has been brought up before, but there was essentially a non-agression and trade pact between the southern christian orthodox kingdoms and the north african mulsim rulers that ran from ~600AD to at least 1200AD until the south fell apart due to infighting and corruption.

Quote: "The closest relations were during the Fatimid period in Egypt. The Shi'ite Fatimids had few allies in the Arab world and Nubia was an important ally."

Possible solution: Make it cost 500 Prestige or Piety to DoW Nubia when playing the Fatimids or the reverse if playing as Nubia. At least while the starting dynasties are in control of the thrones. Also, give the Fatimids and Nubians an alliance either by marriage or some other mechanic.

EDIT: Another reason for needing the mercs is that by the time you can muster even 10k+ levies as Abyssinia, Axum and Nubia will have been part of the Fatimids for at least 100 years.
 
Last edited:

LarryLeica

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Comradebot

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Funny you should ask... sadly, I'm away from my computer that can play CKII for the weekend, but I can speak from personal experience that survival as Nubia in 1.07 isn't only possible, but I've effectively done it, and without the aid of cheats or mods (yes, Shia can holy war/invade me as they please).

It's not easy, nor is any attempt, even knowing what you need to do, a guarantee. Early on, luck is a huge factor. But, this is what I did...

1. I started in 1076. Before then, the Caliphate is simply too powerful, and the amount of pure luck required is simply too high. If you start in 1076 or later, however, you're looking at a Caliphate that's down to mainly Egypt... they're still one of the most powerful forces in the game, but they can be deterred.

2. Restarting: you're gonna have to a few times. If the Caliphate comes for you at the start of the game, you're doomed. You'll lose 2/3's of your provinces, and then either Axum or one of the Caliph's vassals will come calling for Hayya. But they don't always come for you immediately: sometimes they'll target someone else first. But what you really need is...

3. For the Seljuks to declare war on the Caliphate. If they don't immediately implode, the Seljuks may very well declare a holy war for Sinai. It'll be lengthy, brutal, and the Caliphate stands a solid chance of failure.

4. Allies: Nubia doesn't have too much going for it, but one of its advantages is its status as a Kingdom and you've got a King and heir with no wives. From the get go, I managed to ally up with both the HRE and England. They're both going to complain about distance when you call them to war, so do whatever you can to make them love you; send your chancellor to improve relations, scrape together cash for gifts, offer children as wards, ect. If you're quick and lucky, you can declare your own holy war on the Fatimids while they're being slapped around by the Seljuks. If you're confident you'll have tons of help, feel free to head straight for Cairo... I could only convince I believe France to help with that first war, so I was safe and just snagged the county of Aswan. Even that, though, is a nice boost.

5. Be aggressive. You can't sit back and just wait for the Fatimids to burn out, or to hope for any kind of co-existence. So long as they're your neighbors and own Cairo, Alexandria, and Damietta, you're survival is in (dire) jeopardy. Those duchies are simply too rich (especially Cairo and Damietta) and bring in too much manpower to remain in their hands.

6. Don't forget Axum! Not only can they claim Hayya via de jureness, but if they fall to Abyssinia you could be in even bigger trouble. This is another point where I lucked out: I switched to elective monarchy, thus forcing me to land my son... and, as luck would have it, he fabricated a claim on Axum. Abyssinia started to wail on them, so I dog-piled on and took much of the duchy for myself. Once you have the ducal title, snatch up the rest of de jure Axum from Abyssinia. It'll give you some easy boosts to your levy size, and it'll make Abyssinia weak enough to leave you alone. And if you're lucky, they'll go ahead and conquer Harer. Speaking of which...

7. Harer is a tricky choice of whether or not to take after you drop Axum. Its land, and thus money and men, but if Abyssinia takes it, it means you no longer have to deal with Muslims coming from the south for the time being. Despite how I handled it in 1.05 (where I gladly holy wared for it... and Abyssinia and Axum, when cause back then they were Monophysite and Nubia was Orthodox), I actually went the opposite route here. I ignored Harer and let Abyssinia take it, and let them go on to try and fight off Sanaa. Eventually the Hashimids of Mecca broke across the sea and took Harer which in turn forced me to finally go for it, but until then it wasn't my problem. I kept my men and my money in the north to fight the Fatimids.

8. Kind of a re-iteration of #5, but be opportunistic. Back in the day, one could just retreat into the desert and let the Fatimid forces die of thirst. Now, they'll just storm the crappy, poorly constructed walls of your crappy, poorly constructed castles and you'll be looking at "game over" long before their stacks wear down to a manageable size. And even if you do kill a few Fatimid infidels, they'll just call in the terrifying force of the Hashishin. Nubia can't win a straight fight with the Fatimids, at least not until they take two of three richer duchies from Egypt... and no, not even if you take all of de jure Abyssinia. There's just not enough men there alone to make a united, frontal attack on Egypt. Instead, wait for them to go elsewhere. Ever see any threads here about people raging because the Fatimids called a Jihad for Aragon or Galicia? Believe it or not, they don't call those only on the player. If they call an overseas Jihad (and they almost certainly will), get ready: butter up your allies, watch the movements of the Egyptian forces, and wait for them to get on their ships and sail away. When they do, declare your holy war for Cairo or Alexandria and call the ERE or HRE and whoever else you've got to help down to the desert to stomp them in the face.

9. Okay, this isn't super important, but taking Alexandria means you can vassalize your religious head! Once Alexandria is in the hands of Most Glorious Nubia, simply put any random courtier in charge of the Bishopric. The Coptic Pope should replace him and proceed to be your vassal. Alternatively you could leave him unvassalized for usage of the Invasion CB, but meh... having what appears to be Ron Jeremy with a spray tan as a vassal is far cooler. The real advantage here is now you can excommunicate the sorry ass of any other Miaphysite you wish, though given how limited the religion is, its rather limited in power.

And eventually, it'll all start to look like this (and yeah, my only screenshot I've taken... and I've since claimed Damietta as well, and yeah, county is in revolt):

ck2_104.jpg




To summarize, the keys to Nubian excellence are: 1076, luck, allies, luck, being opportunistic and aggressive, and an absolute mess of luck. But once the Fatimids are effectively crushed, the possibilities open up (as they do with every game where you reach the point that complete failure would be a challenge). Do you press west and try to claim Africa from Busaso to Ghana? Do you invade Europe from the south, or perhaps strike from Harer up through Sanaa to claim Arabia? Or perhaps its time for the Miaphysites to claim the Pentarchy? I'm personally planning for the last one... though I plan to intentionally set up an independent Abyssinia with Gondar and Harer. But first, I gotta wait for Axum to de jure drift into Nubia.
 

ZechsMerquise73

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Your Shia idea is interesting. If you convert to Shia then head south and take Abysinnia and the Sunni regions, you'll be in good shape even if the Fatimids come for their Dejure Claims. You don't really need Aswan, as you're a titular Sultanate. But you might just have a good chance on keeping it if Crusaders and Byzantines can whip the Fatamids.


I survived as Abyssinia by taking Harrar, then counties in Axum. Just make sure to leave a state buffering you from the Fatamids and Seljuks. I then waited till I could get a good alliance with the Byzantines, and eventually got into their domain via marriage. Its about 1231 and my dynasty controls the Byzantine Empire, is Miaphysite, and I'm working on changing the vassals over to Ethiopian. Or at least making sure everyone has African skin :)
 

Comradebot

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Your Shia idea is interesting. If you convert to Shia then head south and take Abysinnia and the Sunni regions, you'll be in good shape even if the Fatimids come for their Dejure Claims. You don't really need Aswan, as you're a titular Sultanate. But you might just have a good chance on keeping it if Crusaders and Byzantines can whip the Fatamids.


I survived as Abyssinia by taking Harrar, then counties in Axum. Just make sure to leave a state buffering you from the Fatamids and Seljuks. I then waited till I could get a good alliance with the Byzantines, and eventually got into their domain via marriage. Its about 1231 and my dynasty controls the Byzantine Empire, is Miaphysite, and I'm working on changing the vassals over to Ethiopian. Or at least making sure everyone has African skin :)

Aye, haven't actually tried Abyssinia yet, but I have to figure they're a bit more survivable than Nubia (which, without flawless strategy, execution, and supreme luck is impossible... and is impossible in 1066 as far as I'm concerned). But you've got the Nubian and Axumite buffers, and holy warring for Harer and Sanaa is most certainly a possibility. From there, Arabia is ripe for the picking if you pick your fights smart... rich, high-teched lands to help fund your wars with Egypt. But either way, alliances are key. That, and having a potential "fall back" realm. For me, it was Flanders... by pure luck. Turned out my wife had a weak claim on it, and a faction actually demanded that the original liege step down so she could rule. He did, and now Flanders is part of Nubia. Lost a county to England and another got inherited into France, but had I not beat the Fatimids I would've been able to flee to the Netherlands instead.

Still, good job. Glad I'm not the only one to take the Miaphysites to glory. :)
 

unmerged(320188)

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Tried playing as them too. Always got steamrolled by the Egyptians in no time. Mission impossible.
 

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I did it few times at prev patch. This time is harder, cause you cant holly war axium, harer now. Still key positions are the same:

A. If you play male Dow fatimids with any CB. You lose but in my expirience it delays their war for few years, if you are lucky then its like 20 years. And marry princess of HRE and pray Kaiser dont die soon, this will protect you from minor muslims(Emir of Alexandria, Sheikh of Aswan ...). In 2 years get rid of your wife and marry Byz princess (best ally and sometimes it ends in inheriting whole empire).

B. A bit tricky but works best. Start as diligent gourgeous Queen of Nubia, with 2-4 sons and without husband, and marry... the Caliph.
???
Profit.
 

cyrileom

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I remember surviving in Abysinnia by converting to Orthodox and swearing fealty to Byz Empire. Now, because of Miaphysite, you'll have to RD to Orthodox. But it worked.
 

HabemusZlatan

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Or you could play Balansegang. It does a rather good work with East Africa (but of course takes away all the challenge from playing Nubia)
 

Sleight of Hand

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A couple of things I've done to help East Africa a bit:

~ New cultures: Berber, Bulgar and Nubian.
~ Only Sunni Muslims may declare Jihad, and may no longer do so against Orthodox or Miaphysite rulers.
~ Muslim invasions now target duchies instead of kingdoms.
~ Tweaked the setup in East Africa and added a couple of Nubian and Sudanese mercenary companies, which ought to help Ethiopia survive.
 

cyrileom

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Yeah changing the start date is about all you can do...But in 1066 It is IMPOSSIBLE
There are plenty of examples that it is possible. You just need to secure alliances, and not holy war muslims willy nilly.
 

LarryLeica

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Thanks for the input, just catching up here.

It is nigh impossible in 1066, I can see ways it could work but the luck is in the region of 1000:1 odds, if not more, given the correct set of circumstances and need to constantly restart. I've had over 10 starts now in vanilla and haven't got past 1070. I have managed it once in a previous patch before the two major DLCs came out. Changing to a Shia ruler via the Beard Designer only delays the inevitable in a 1066 start as they then use a neighbour conquest on you for a province and then the Abs or Axs, or both, DoW and you are gone once that happens.

The mod, helps a little, I got to 1094 so far, however, the Fattypuffs are now stabilised with a new Caliph and no debt, but I have put that game on hold for now to try the later start as recommended by ComradeBot. I do want to ultimately get Alexandria and stick the Pope on his throne with a years supply of Andrex, so there's motivation to do that at least... :)
 

Sleight of Hand

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The mod, helps a little, I got to 1094 so far, however, the Fattypuffs are now stabilised with a new Caliph and no debt, but I have put that game on hold for now to try the later start as recommended by ComradeBot. I do want to ultimately get Alexandria and stick the Pope on his throne with a years supply of Andrex, so there's motivation to do that at least... :)
If you wanted, you could try my little mod. I have given Nubia its own de jure duchy and kingdom. It may interest you, it may not. They also have their own culture and I've added some more mercenaries to East Africa.
 

Satyros

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Actually Νubia and the relevant gameplay (survival ) problems are one of the best Paradox easter eggs/meta-jokes .

See , you can't win with Nubia .

"Nubia" .

"Noobia" .

Get it ? You just got to pronounce it right , it all makes sense and presumably works as intended .

*Runs to avoid the inevitable stoning*
 

LarryLeica

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If you wanted, you could try my little mod. I have given Nubia its own de jure duchy and kingdom. It may interest you, it may not. They also have their own culture and I've added some more mercenaries to East Africa.

I'm going to give that a go as well thank you for the suggestion.

1076 start: 03-02-1076 "May you rot in the belly of a dead camel." etc... 11 retries later... Am still rotting in the belly of a dead camel and my desk has a forehead shaped impression in it... :D It has made no difference who I have married, I added 2 children via the editor, so I had HRE, France, and Byz as allies but they still DoW'd and got to 100% (twice) before any help came. Aarrgghh!

I have a cunning plan to install Turnip-al-Baldric on the throne and swear fealty... then gobble them up from the inside all the time marrying Miaphysites and having all my children educated by Miaphysites, then once I have the provinces I need I shall declare independence! I assume that strategy will work as it works everywere else, it just requires patience.

*Runs to avoid the inevitable stoning*

I only said that province would have been good enough for Mohammed...