Now that Landless is going to be a thing, why not let us switch to playing as any of our character's children at any time?

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Pellucid

Ottoboos get out! Reeee!
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Mar 17, 2005
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Thread title. It would be kind of cool to have integration for saying "I want to play as my third son, even if he's not inheriting the main title;" or "I want to play as my kid who was just born and see what gameplay is like as a landless baby," or "I want to have more control over my heir's life and development, so I'll switch now and let the AI take over my current character."

Basically we can either use the current functionality where we wait until we die, then play as the primary heir, or we can "designate next character" so when we die we play as a child other than the primary heir, or just switch to one of our children immediately and let the AI take over our current character. I'd limit it to just the children of the current player, not other potential heirs, because I think it would be too powerful and flexible to really count for Ironman if you could choose an uncle or something.
 
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So, I think there might be some misconceptions on what unlanded gameplay is and isn't.

Unlanded gameplay is 1) the ability to play the head of a powerful noble family in Byzantium, and 2) the ability to play an adventurer

Unlanded gameplay is not the ability to play any courtier in the game. That is not what the developers seem to be going for.


So, why not play any courtier in the game? Because you'd have no court to manage and you'd be ineligible for the vast, super majority of events in the game, making the game very quiet and boring. Your time playing a random kid would just be running on speed 5 for half an hour while you occasionally click through Wards and Warden events.
 
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So, I think there might be some misconceptions on what unlanded gameplay is and isn't.

Unlanded gameplay is 1) the ability to play the head of a powerful noble family in Byzantium, and 2) the ability to play an adventurer

Unlanded gameplay is not the ability to play any courtier in the game. That is not what the developers seem to be going for.


So, why not play any courtier in the game? Because you'd have no court to manage and you'd be ineligible for the vast, super majority of events in the game, making the game very quiet and boring. Your time playing a random kid would just be running on speed 5 for half an hour while you occasionally click through Wards and Warden events.
Maybe the suggestion should be amended with “turn any courtier the player chooses to play as into an adventurer”? Maybe infants wouldn’t work but it’s hard to see what the objection would be to any adult.
 
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So, I think there might be some misconceptions on what unlanded gameplay is and isn't.

Unlanded gameplay is 1) the ability to play the head of a powerful noble family in Byzantium, and 2) the ability to play an adventurer

Unlanded gameplay is not the ability to play any courtier in the game. That is not what the developers seem to be going for.


So, why not play any courtier in the game? Because you'd have no court to manage and you'd be ineligible for the vast, super majority of events in the game, making the game very quiet and boring. Your time playing a random kid would just be running on speed 5 for half an hour while you occasionally click through Wards and Warden events.
If you choose to be a loyal vassal and not expand you also play on speed 5, 100 runestones and the hapsburg achievement both will likely use speed 5 to get. Speed 5 isnt unique to landless play
That's literally what I'm asking them to change here.
Then hopefully they'll change it, like finally deironmanning achievements
 
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If you choose to be a loyal vassal and not expand you also play on speed 5, 100 runestones and the hapsburg achievement both will likely use speed 5 to get. Speed 5 isnt unique to landless play

Then hopefully they'll change it, like finally deironmanning achievements
The point was that there's nothing to do as a landless child. You can put it on speed 1 if you'd like and really drag out absolutely nothing happening at all. Nothing in this year's content is going toward improving the experience of playing a new born baby who isn't attached to any court.

When you play a kid now, you, the player, are still managing the realm. You have something to do. You still have to push all of the buttons and fight all of the wars. A landless kid with no court has no buttons to press at all. That's why the new content is limited to two specific kinds of unlanded characters.
 
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The point was that there's nothing to do as a landless child. You can put it on speed 1 if you'd like and really drag out absolutely nothing happening at all. Nothing in this year's content is going toward improving the experience of playing a new born baby who isn't attached to any court.

When you play a kid now, you, the player, are still managing the realm. You have something to do. You still have to push all of the buttons and fight all of the wars. A landless kid with no court has no buttons to press at all. That's why the new content is limited to two specific kinds of unlanded characters.
Yes, only adventurers will have content. But paradox can chose which characters are allowed to be adventurers. If they simply define it as “any player character can be an adventurer,” isn’t the problem solved?

Honestly if kids can rule empires and have a regent while the player still controls things it’s hard to see why they can’t Be an adventurer and have a “protector.” But even if you don’t like that for some reason surely any given adult courtier can an adventurer if the player picks them.

Edit: also, sort of a side point, but is seems like it would be a huge miss if paradox didn’t go through and modify as many events as possible to target the player if they’re a courtier as well as a ruler. There are plenty that don’t require you to own land.
 
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I agree with the notion that landless play is going to be more limited than people seem to think. But I'd like the above mentioned feature for reasons that are unrelated to adventuring. Sometimes I just want to play as the second heir who got a duchy rather than the main line - and see how those guys fare managing the Empire I built.
 
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Unlanded gameplay is 1) the ability to play the head of a powerful noble family in Byzantium, and 2) the ability to play an adventurer

Unlanded gameplay is not the ability to play any courtier in the game. That is not what the developers seem to be going for.
What makes you say this? This just seems to be your assumption.

One of the bookmark characters the devs have wink wink nudge nudge acknowledged as a landless character is Rollo of Normandy, who is literally a courtier and not an adventurer.

Likewise the feature is advertised as giving you the ability to lose your title and work to regain it, which does not sound like something you can succeed at by just going on adventures somewhere. It rather sounds like going to a court where you can find someone to support you.
 
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What makes you say this? This just seems to be your assumption.

One of the bookmark characters the devs have wink wink nudge nudge acknowledged as a landless character is Rollo of Normandy, who is literally a courtier and not an adventurer.

Likewise the feature is advertised as giving you the ability to lose your title and work to regain it, which does not sound like something you can succeed at by just going on adventures somewhere. It rather sounds like going to a court where you can find someone to support you.
The description of unlanded gameplay is pinned to the top of the board. I'm not sure what else you're looking for.


This Major Expansion introduces two brand new ways of playing the game, one focused on the Administrative governance of Eastern Rome, and the other on traveling the map in search of fame and fortune.

Two new ways to play the game and they're both described so you don't have to guess. Seems straight forward to me.
 
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Being able to switch between characters at any time would probably be a bit weird, but I've suggested separating the primary heir from the playable heir a few times. Being able to choose which heir we want to play as after the death of the current character would be great, especially for the challenge. Let's say I'm the emperor, I've achieved what I wanted, I'm not interested in map painting and the game is boring. Instead of playing as the fifth emperor in a row, I'd let the primary heir inherit the empire and I'd continue on as a secondary or tertiary heir who can start a new house and try to create his own legacy somewhere else.
Wouldn't that be an interesting addition? And would such a thing be possible without breaking achievements? What do the devs think about it @Wokeg ? :)
 
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Being able to switch between characters at any time would probably be a bit weird, but I've suggested separating the primary heir from the playable heir a few times. Being able to choose which heir we want to play as after the death of the current character would be great, especially for the challenge. Let's say I'm the emperor, I've achieved what I wanted, I'm not interested in map painting and the game is boring. Instead of playing as the fifth emperor in a row, I'd let the primary heir inherit the empire and I'd continue on as a secondary or tertiary heir who can start a new house and try to create his own legacy somewhere else.
Wouldn't that be an interesting addition? And would such a thing be possible without breaking achievements? What do the devs think about it @Wokeg ? :)
I like this idea. It does sound like it would confuse the less experienced players.
 
So, I think there might be some misconceptions on what unlanded gameplay is and isn't.

Unlanded gameplay is 1) the ability to play the head of a powerful noble family in Byzantium, and 2) the ability to play an adventurer

Unlanded gameplay is not the ability to play any courtier in the game. That is not what the developers seem to be going for.
Big +1 here.

The experience of playing an admin vassal is very different to the experience of playing an adventurer, the experience of playing a courtier would be very different to an adventurer and fairly different (though probably with a bit more overlap) than playing an admin vassal, and the experience of playing a baron would just be feudal but worse unless we made some kind of system of micro-holding mechanics or something.

Courtiers specifically also have an additional problem: they, by definition, don't hold titles. That's still a core requirement for being playable, even if the title you hold represents your adventurer... ness, or just your dynastic household, or w/e, but you do still have to have a title.
Yes, only adventurers will have content. But paradox can chose which characters are allowed to be adventurers. If they simply define it as “any player character can be an adventurer,” isn’t the problem solved?
True enough!
Honestly if kids can rule empires and have a regent while the player still controls things it’s hard to see why they can’t Be an adventurer and have a “protector.” But even if you don’t like that for some reason surely any given adult courtier can an adventurer if the player picks them.
We've actually specifically not gone for this for scoping reasons: diarchies are largely about interaction between a jumped-up vassal and their peer vassals. Making them work for landless adventurers properly would mean essentially making an entire new diarchy type, with its own content and play-rhythms, just for them. That's not a bad idea or mechanically impossible, but it's secondary to trying to make sure that the core experience of playing an adventurer is the best it can be, so we're not tackling it this time.

As people have raised in various places, there's a lot of serious challenges to making sure an adventurer's game doesn't get too stale and we're treating those as seriously as we can. No point having a banger of a regent experience for adventurers if the main flow grows stale within a generation, so content and mechanics are going to the core experience first.
Edit: also, sort of a side point, but is seems like it would be a huge miss if paradox didn’t go through and modify as many events as possible to target the player if they’re a courtier as well as a ruler. There are plenty that don’t require you to own land.
We've done this for admin vassals and landed adventurers, and god rest the poor heroic souls who were on that particular audit.

Courtiers are still not playable, I'm afraid.
I agree with the notion that landless play is going to be more limited than people seem to think. But I'd like the above mentioned feature for reasons that are unrelated to adventuring. Sometimes I just want to play as the second heir who got a duchy rather than the main line - and see how those guys fare managing the Empire I built.
Being able to switch between characters at any time would probably be a bit weird, but I've suggested separating the primary heir from the playable heir a few times. Being able to choose which heir we want to play as after the death of the current character would be great, especially for the challenge. Let's say I'm the emperor, I've achieved what I wanted, I'm not interested in map painting and the game is boring. Instead of playing as the fifth emperor in a row, I'd let the primary heir inherit the empire and I'd continue on as a secondary or tertiary heir who can start a new house and try to create his own legacy somewhere else.
Wouldn't that be an interesting addition? And would such a thing be possible without breaking achievements? What do the devs think about it @Wokeg ? :)
:) No promises on timelines but it is something we're aware of and exploring options for, at least for non-ironman play.
What makes you say this? This just seems to be your assumption.
I'm pretty sure we said it in a few places but I can see how these things get missed: so, just to confirm, Jia is very much on the money. It's landless admin + landless adventurers, not courtiers, not barons.
One of the bookmark characters the devs have wink wink nudge nudge acknowledged as a landless character is Rollo of Normandy, who is literally a courtier and not an adventurer.
^^' We're uhh, we're just gonna give him an adventurer title honestly.
Likewise the feature is advertised as giving you the ability to lose your title and work to regain it, which does not sound like something you can succeed at by just going on adventures somewhere. It rather sounds like going to a court where you can find someone to support you.
You do indeed go off to adventure elsewhere. Depending on how other things scope out, we may have more or less specific content and mechanics for doing specifically this, going off to lobby for support at other courts. We've got plans for it but it's a little bit in a similar place to regencies for adventurers: if the core experience isn't good and varied enough, but we've got a great revanchist path, then that's probably not the best allocation of resources.

I do think that reclaiming your lost titles is significantly more core than having a good regency, but it's still mechanically doable without oodles of custom content, so we'll see.
 
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The experience of playing an admin vassal is very different to the experience of playing an adventurer, the experience of playing a courtier would be very different to an adventurer and fairly different (though probably with a bit more overlap) than playing an admin vassal, and the experience of playing a baron would just be feudal but worse unless we made some kind of system of micro-holding mechanics or something.
Could an admin vassal or adventurer be a Vizier or Court Physician?
 
Big +1 here.

The experience of playing an admin vassal is very different to the experience of playing an adventurer, the experience of playing a courtier would be very different to an adventurer and fairly different (though probably with a bit more overlap) than playing an admin vassal, and the experience of playing a baron would just be feudal but worse unless we made some kind of system of micro-holding mechanics or something.

Courtiers specifically also have an additional problem: they, by definition, don't hold titles. That's still a core requirement for being playable, even if the title you hold represents your adventurer... ness, or just your dynastic household, or w/e, but you do still have to have a title.

True enough!

We've actually specifically not gone for this for scoping reasons: diarchies are largely about interaction between a jumped-up vassal and their peer vassals. Making them work for landless adventurers properly would mean essentially making an entire new diarchy type, with its own content and play-rhythms, just for them. That's not a bad idea or mechanically impossible, but it's secondary to trying to make sure that the core experience of playing an adventurer is the best it can be, so we're not tackling it this time.

As people have raised in various places, there's a lot of serious challenges to making sure an adventurer's game doesn't get too stale and we're treating those as seriously as we can. No point having a banger of a regent experience for adventurers if the main flow grows stale within a generation, so content and mechanics are going to the core experience first.

We've done this for admin vassals and landed adventurers, and god rest the poor heroic souls who were on that particular audit.

Courtiers are still not playable, I'm afraid.


:) No promises on timelines but it is something we're aware of and exploring options for, at least for non-ironman play.

I'm pretty sure we said it in a few places but I can see how these things get missed: so, just to confirm, Jia is very much on the money. It's landless admin + landless adventurers, not courtiers, not barons.

^^' We're uhh, we're just gonna give him an adventurer title honestly.

You do indeed go off to adventure elsewhere. Depending on how other things scope out, we may have more or less specific content and mechanics for doing specifically this, going off to lobby for support at other courts. We've got plans for it but it's a little bit in a similar place to regencies for adventurers: if the core experience isn't good and varied enough, but we've got a great revanchist path, then that's probably not the best allocation of resources.

I do think that reclaiming your lost titles is significantly more core than having a good regency, but it's still mechanically doable without oodles of custom content, so we'll see.
So if the player becomes unlanded do they become an adventurer? I thought they did but now I’m not so sure. Edit: rereading, it seems like this is clearly intended.

One reason I jumped from that to any courtier can be an adventurer is that is seems like you could just land any courtier, switch to them, and use cheats or just being a jerk to your liege to get your title revoked, thus becoming an adventurer. So it seemed odd to not just let the player skip those intermediate steps and designate anyone as an adventurer to start with.

I can’t tell if the “courtiers don’t count” clarification means that you can’t select to turn a courtier into an adventurer (without extra steps), or you can but then they simply don’t count as a courtier anymore. Hoping for the second one.
 
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Courtiers specifically also have an additional problem: they, by definition, don't hold titles. That's still a core requirement for being playable, even if the title you hold represents your adventurer... ness, or just your dynastic household, or w/e, but you do still have to have a title.
Oh interesting. So if adventurousness is a title, do adventurers have their own courts and courtiers?
 
You should always be allowed to switch, albeit with some restrictions (?)

Think HRE succession. Why should I need to play as the new emperor just because he's of my dynasty, when I was about to continue playing as a vassal in my own realm? I should get an option to switch character.
 
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