Novgorod.

[AngryEmpire]

So I have a fascination with playing historically-dead nations and turning them into world empires such as my Teutonic Order > Prussia > Germany campaign. With Muscovy being too easy, I turned my eyes upon the Merchant republic of Novgorod and intend to do to them exactly what they did to us. Long term goals are to form the Russian empire and begin colonizing immediately, but i'm stuck getting past the initial war. If there is a much better starting period or a general strategy anyone has tried and used then i'd love to know. Cheers.

 

[LeKaiser]

See if you can ally Lithuania. It's a bit of a gamble as I've found sometimes Lithuania will decide it hates you, and sometimes will be open to an alliance. If you luck out and they don't fall under an early PU with Poland, they're usually a very willing and eager ally for wars against Muscovy and they bring a substantial army to the table.

 

[AngryEmpire]

After restarting 4 or 5 times i've noticed a trend, in each of these games Lithuania doesn't end up in a PU however my opinion of them is -18, and after I grant them military access it's still to 8 points short of forming an alliance and by then, Muscovy attacks.

 

[LeKaiser]

After restarting 4 or 5 times i've noticed a trend, in each of these games Lithuania doesn't end up in a PU however my opinion of them is -18, and after I grant them military access it's still to 8 points short of forming an alliance and by then, Muscovy attacks.

Set a common rival (they'll usually rival Muscovy). You'll get a slowly increasing relations bonus from that (I think it caps at +20).

 

[AngryEmpire]

I've managed to ally Lithuania, and have increased my troop count to 18. Unsure whether or not to wait for Muscovy to declare war and have Livonian Order and Scotland join too or just face them now with me and Lithuania whilst they're busy in Kazan.

 

[LeKaiser]

If they're at war with Kazan, I'd say go for it. There's not a better time.

 

[AngryEmpire]

well, unfortunately they're no longer at war; they've also allied with Denmark however they're currently loosing their war against Sweden. Lithuania no longer wants to join so i'll just wait for the Muscovite doomstack to roll in.

 

[Mercadi]

I found the trick when playing next to Muscovy is hitting it hard early, and then repeat as often as possible. If you don't, later it becomes too strong (after annexing Perm and colonizing). As Novgorod you get decent income, so get some mercs to give you an edge.

 

[Lakedaimon]

Any game that you see Muscovy getting destroyed is by Novgorod allying Poland, after Poland gets the PU over Lithuania you can pretty much stomp them. It depends on a lot of luck and probably a lot of restarting.

 

[mgoetze]

Any game that you see Muscovy getting destroyed is by Novgorod allying Poland, after Poland gets the PU over Lithuania you can pretty much stomp them. It depends on a lot of luck and probably a lot of restarting.

I found it quite doable to win a war with just Lithuania as an ally, no Poland. After that first war I could stomp them on my own, even though Lithuania got PUed away from me.

 

[BlaqkSkai]

Any game that you see Muscovy getting destroyed is by Novgorod allying Poland, after Poland gets the PU over Lithuania you can pretty much stomp them. It depends on a lot of luck and probably a lot of restarting.

I was able to defeat Muscovy without any allies. I took out a lot of loans and bought tons of mercenaries. IIRC, I made them release Perm and took a couple provinces. Then just vassalize Perm yourself and have a fairly easy time with things.

 

[Lakedaimon]

Yea I've never been good with strained early wars. I'm usually better at working the diplomacy game to get the nations I need behind me to scare away the big dogs and pick my wars carefully.

 

[AngryEmpire]

Just an update on this, i've vassalized Perm and began eating away at Muscovy and just won a war against Sweden too, my AE is quite high so i'm going to sit around for a few years and hopefully try make a few more friends since Lithuania has decided that it may have just helped create a powerful enemy right on it's doorstep. Thank you all for your advice.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Lithuania will frequently get PUd by Poland, but you only need them for that first big battle. Let them engage Muscovy first, then go in on it to win the fight w/o big losses (or if they'll win the fight w/o help, don't bother), then chase the shattered stack and wipe it. After that, you don't care whether Lithuania helps you or not very much, though it's nice if they siege a bit. Just keep killing Muscovy's newly recruited regiments with a small stack while you otherwise siege them out. The hordes will join the party after not too long and Muscovy will be gone, gone, gone.

Then re-elect spam your young leaders and rake in the MP. Novgorod is actually pretty strong other than the opening. IMO all merchant republics are pretty good even w/o the + .5 RT, despite what many say.

 

[echolot]

At least before 1.5 allying Poland and lead defensive wars (best case as far as possible in the north like Finland) always worked.

 

[tormos]

the other nice thing about Novgorod initially is that you've got enough depth to retreat and rebuild if everything goes tits up. As soon as it looks like your main stack is going to get wiped (which will fairly likely happen at some point because Muscovy's army is probably bigger than yours and Lithuania's AI can be a bit dodgy), start hiring mercs in the Finnish provinces. By the time Muscovy marches up there (optimally taking 5% attrition the whole way from winter) you will have a pretty decent force together. Also remember that your goal in the first war is to hurt Muscovy: This may be accomplished just by holding the line long enough and determinedly enough that the hordes jump in on Muscovy as well, at which point you are free to start sieging whatever you want in the North (this works better if you wait for Muscovy to attack so you have ticking warscore)

 

[tormos]

As a side note, I would encourage you to not form Russia. Practically, it leaves you open to the Time of Troubles if your stab drops below +2 between 1550 and 1650, which is a lot of risk to take on for +6 basetax in Neva, and emotionally speaking having giant ahistorical Novgorod everywhere is really fun.o

 

[Hummer]

Perhaps a little off topic. I don't mean to derail the thread.

But, historically, who formed Russia? It was Muscovy, not Novgorod?

 

[unmerged(788416)]

Historically it was Moscow, though Novgorod was a more advanced (allthough weaker) state.