Novgorod in Mare Nostrum: How is it supposed to be played?

[Artess]

However keep in mind that 90% of that territory is a barely populated hinterland wasteland. Im talking literally 200 km of nothing a trade post 200 km of nothing a trade post etc.

Novgorod was the only serious city. Everything else, at times, at best towns.

Ladoga, Torzhok, Pskov... I'd call those serious. I understand that there was a lot of wilderness but it was hardly a single city-state.

Much of that territory was empty, or thinly populated by nomadic hunters. Novgorod existed as an association of towns mostly, with Novgorod proper dominant. I do agree that Novgorod wasn't typical, it was really more of an oligarchic republic.

I agree that it was an oligarchic republic, but trade was such a big part of its existence that I think it warrants considering it a proper merchant republic in EU4. After all, a "merchant republic" isn't really considered a government form IRL. Genoa and even Venice could probably be downgraded to oligarchic as well. The MR model in EU4 reflects the republic's reliance on trade, and it's the case with Novgorod too.

This is what DDRJake said in this thread:

That's not an answer to the problem, though, is it? It doesn't address the underlying issue; it's a crude workaround that breaks Ironman.

Get some vassals as Novgorod and expand from there?

How far could you expand before they become all rebelious, though?

 

[DanubianCossak]

Ladoga, Torzhok, Pskov... I'd call those serious. I understand that there was a lot of wilderness but it was hardly a single city-state.

Ladoga was a village that got a fortress because it was in a strategic position. Nothing serious about that.

Pskov is a serious city, there is just one problem. Although considered part of Novgorod lands in CK2 time, in EU4 time its not. Its a thing on its own.

Torzhok - in 12th century devastated by wars between princedoms around it; In 13th century got sieged and taken by Batu (and you know what happened to wooden cities that got taken by Mongols) and after Mongols Lithuanians; in 1333 and 1334 Torzhok was ravaged by Moscovy; in 1372 it was raided by Tver and by EU4 start time its basically an overgrown border village directly on the main road to Novgorod. Barely even 2 : 2 : 2 in development.

 

[The-Doc]

Biggest problem IMHO, is how Merchant republics are locked into their Government type. Perhaps given faction dominance they could shift to different type of republic with a decision and stab hit.

 

[zeredek]

I believe you've seen this, right?
http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum...ics-are-dead-rip-venice.917998/#post-20919048

I doubt there's any distinguish between MR in general and Novgorod in particular. It's like saying "We don't care you don't like it". Forcing us to mod this 'feature' is just wrong.

It's clear Paradox have no idea what they're doing with the game anymore
They're actively discouraging everything

There's nothing to do in this game except expand
Merchant republics are punished for expanding
And you also get punished for expanding too fast

 

[PaleoTurtle]

Here's my two cents on the whole thing: yes, I believe the situation the new patch puts Novgorod in is tragic and severely limiting. Its unfair to limit a nation with such a rich, unique and vibrant history as Novgorod. However, the situation also is not unplayable, atleast from early to mid game. Vassals, while tedious at times can help control more than the 20 province limit. As of now, Yaroslavl(My vassal) and I control most of Muscovy's development, and I still sit at a ripe 20 province count(I feed all my shitt land to Yaroslavl to maximize the development I can have). I am at war with the hanseatic league through a DW on Riga as I want to take Lubeck and move my trade cap downstream(I know AE will be terrible). My trade league is much larger than any of my rivals and I think I will dominate Lubeck after the war. As has been stated though, it would be nice to have ideas to match this playstyle. My suggestion is this: instead of having lowered province caps how about having a lower ammount of potential states? Some of you said that much of Novgorod historically was relatively autonomous and unpopulous territories. In the case of Novgorod, this will be more historically accurate and from a balance standpoint, more fair. I cannot say the same for the other MRs though. Perhaps a special government type for Novgorod is in order, like the Netherlands has with the Dutch Republic.

 

[A Landy]

Here's my two cents on the whole thing: yes, I believe the situation the new patch puts Novgorod in is tragic and severely limiting. Its unfair to limit a nation with such a rich, unique and vibrant history as Novgorod. However, the situation also is not unplayable, atleast from early to mid game. Vassals, while tedious at times can help control more than the 20 province limit. As of now, Yaroslavl(My vassal) and I control most of Muscovy's development, and I still sit at a ripe 20 province count(I feed all my shitt land to Yaroslavl to maximize the development I can have). I am at war with the hanseatic league through a DW on Riga as I want to take Lubeck and move my trade cap downstream(I know AE will be terrible). My trade league is much larger than any of my rivals and I think I will dominate Lubeck after the war. As has been stated though, it would be nice to have ideas to match this playstyle. My suggestion is this: instead of having lowered province caps how about having a lower ammount of potential states? Some of you said that much of Novgorod historically was relatively autonomous and unpopulous territories. In the case of Novgorod, this will be more historically accurate and from a balance standpoint, more fair. I cannot say the same for the other MRs though. Perhaps a special government type for Novgorod is in order, like the Netherlands has with the Dutch Republic.

The estates could be (after having a look on the wiki page):
- Guilds/Merchants
- Princes
- Militia (Tysyatsky)
- Archbishop/Clergy
- Posadniks
- Veche(s)
Or it could be a combination of factions and estates for the new government

 

[bbqftw]

Once upon a time, you had one option in Russia that wasn't utter trash in government type.

But now you have 0 .

Idk, I actually think that merchant republics lacking estates is actually a drawback. Not enough to overcome monarchy issues, but enough that they are significantly worse than other types of republics.

 

[Dragomar]

I just want to say DDRJake's quoted response up there to legitimate complaints is repugnant and makes me never want to buy another paradox game ever again if they treat customers this way.

 

[Tweakee]

FYI, they're changing it so territories don't count towards the 20, which should make expanding as Nov strategically interesting instead of next-to-impossible.

If you intend to blob, you'll still want to either focus on vassals and +RT bonuses, or fall out of the republic. But once that change goes live, you'll have a choice.

 

[Incompetent]

From a gameplay perspective, Novgorod really should start as an Oligarchic Republic. The new rules for playing a MR only really work if you are expanding across coastal areas (e.g. Venice/Genoa getting outposts around the Mediterranean), so you can cherry-pick provinces, and can play the light ship game to cement trade dominance in places you don't totally own. To build a land-based trade power, you really need to kill off the competition completely (otherwise your trade route gets wrecked by caravan power). When the hotfix comes in, Novgorod will be playable as a MR by just keeping most of Russia as territorial land, but that's still a weak option compared to building up a solid core of states with Oligarchic Republic (or any other government type). You could in theory focus instead on expanding westward into the Baltic and Lübeck nodes, but it's pretty awkward in terms of direction of trade, and you still need to deal with Muscovy somehow.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Idk, I actually think that merchant republics lacking estates is actually a drawback. Not enough to overcome monarchy issues, but enough that they are significantly worse than other types of republics.

Agreed, but 1.15 Novgorod was still decidedly viable. I suppose the next patch "only states count" rules will leave them in that territory again.

 

[Mortheim]

The ones that are all democratic and republican and capitalist and all that s$#1t. And on top probably human rightsy and libertish etc.

But....but....they were ruled by small group of rich families, like in oligarchy. Some times rich people just bought votes on veche. Is this your democracy?

 

[Incompetent]

I dont understand people who want to play in Russia;

And then they go and pick the worst kind of Russians.

The ones that are all democratic and republican and capitalist and all that s$#1t. And on top probably human rightsy and libertish etc.

Might as well just go and play as any Western country...

If I wanted to be a democracy in early modern Europe, I'd play as a Cossack host. The only difference between patricians and aristocrats in this era was that the patricians were obsessed with earning money, whereas the aristocrats were obsessed with lineage and owning land. Neither group was remotely democratic in the modern sense.

 

[Isaios]

If I wanted to be a democracy in early modern Europe, I'd play as a Cossack host. The only difference between patricians and aristocrats in this era was that the patricians were obsessed with earning money, whereas the aristocrats were obsessed with lineage and owning land. Neither group was remotely democratic in the modern sense.

You could go with one of the peasant republics though. Still not modern Democratic, what with no women, no indigents, no anyone-that-looked-at-me-funny-in-08, but democrat-ish?

 

[samin]

Question: Novgorod in Mare Nostrum: How is it supposed to be played?
Answer: As a tall Merchant Republic OR wide as literally any other government type.

I'm confused. Can't you just switch government from Merchant Republic to Oligarchic anymore?

 

[Isaios]

Can't you just switch government from Merchant Republic to Oligarchic anymore?

No.

 

[monsterfurby]

Much of that territory was empty, or thinly populated by nomadic hunters. Novgorod existed as an association of towns mostly, with Novgorod proper dominant. I do agree that Novgorod wasn't typical, it was really more of an oligarchic republic.

I haven't played the DLC all that much yet, so please correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that the RT mechanic doesn't know the difference between a dominant city-state and hardly settled periphery, even though this could be easily solved by using the State/Territory mechanic.

 

[firecage]

Mmmm. I actually believe that due to us having provinces which can vastly differ in size, from hard-click provinces like Venice, to immensely large provinces like those found in Scandinavia, I believe that restricting Merchant Republic growth to specifically 20 provinces is kind of silly. Since a small merchant republic owning 20 tiny provinces, and a massive merchant republic owning 20 massive provinces, will both suffer the same penalties.

While this would probably inherently have the same issue, I guess. I think that instead of provinces, this, mmmm, mechanic for Merchant Republics should instead be based on Developement. And also that Merchant Republics should eventually get decisions to reform how their government operates. Also, why not make Administrative Efficiency increase their amount of max provinces?

 

[Artess]

Perhaps a special government type for Novgorod is in order, like the Netherlands has with the Dutch Republic.

I like this idea. A "boyar republic" perhaps (boyars being Russian sort-of-but-not-exactly nobility). Novgorod is the only MR that doesn't rely on the naval game for trade. All its upstream nodes (except Crimea) are inland. Their special government could reflect that, and maybe slightly nerf the trade bonuses MRs have, but in return allow it to expand like a normal country and form a strong and large Russia that is governed by democratic ideals and is focused on trade.

FYI, they're changing it so territories don't count towards the 20, which should make expanding as Nov strategically interesting instead of next-to-impossible.

If you intend to blob, you'll still want to either focus on vassals and +RT bonuses, or fall out of the republic. But once that change goes live, you'll have a choice.

I think it's a reasonable change.

From a gameplay perspective, Novgorod really should start as an Oligarchic Republic.

The whole premise of a "Merchant republic" is a EU4 concept that defines republics that were predominantly focused on trade. Genoa and Venice were, in fact, oligarchic republics as well. The special government form exists because EU4 governments aren't very flexible, so you have to use it as a workaround.

 

[Incompetent]

The whole premise of a "Merchant republic" is a EU4 concept that defines republics that were predominantly focused on trade. Genoa and Venice were, in fact, oligarchic republics as well. The special government form exists because EU4 governments aren't very flexible, so you have to use it as a workaround.

Well yes, the distinction is only really an in-game thing, but I don't know if it works too well any more for a Russian power, simply because of the geography. Your suggestion of a new republic type is a good one, although I don't know if Paradox considers Novgorod important enough for that. (On a somewhat related note, the situation for Novgorod in terms of CK2 mechanics is much worse - Merchant Republics are really tied to the coast, and you can't even play as any other kind of Republic.)