Novgorod, how do you do it?

[Jotvingis]

Alone Novgorod will be dead sooner or later. Novgorod has to join to some alliance before Moscow DOW. I suggest not Denmark+Sweden+Norway (only to avoid Sweden DOW) but Lithuanian alliance for real help against Moscow.

Recently I have started with Novgorod (in AGCEEP, very hard). I joined to Lithuanian alliance when Poland DOW to Teutonic Order (usually Poland DOW for TO in the end of June 1419). I'm not sure it is possible to get to Lithuanian alliance at peace. In July 1419 Moscow DOW for me and I call for help my new allies, and they join to war against Moscow & co.

I avoided battles because Novgorod at this time has the weakest army. I send only small armies for looting and soon I had to return all armies back to avoid destruction. For pillage I got very few cash but it was enough to build some army.

Novgorod city was seized at once by Pskow ant Twer. I just waited for diplomats and revoke all military access. All around were big battles between Lithuania and Moscow & her allies. Lithuania won more battles because at the start LIT have troops with very good morale + two leaders. When they were killing each other I seized Vologda (Moscow‘s province in the nord). My capital was seized for a long time but I took Vologda faster because of defensive slider (bonus for siege). After some time Moscow signed peace with Lithuania and I even got one province from Moscow.

 

[unmerged(96838)]

Yeah, thats similar to how I got started, except i gained Pskov off TO (when Poland made peace with them)

Even though Lith kept dishonouring the alliance when I called 'for help', they also kept rejoining and fought the Muscovites when it mattered.

I returned them for that 'help' later...with their mass slaughter

 

[Jotvingis]

Do you continue game?

In my game after truce Moscow DOW again, but I was waiting for that. Alliances were the same, but only NOV and LIT fought against all other Russians (POL and MOZ just waited). I concentrated at first only on Moscow and finally got control on all her province. After that I took Twer and made separated peace – made all Russians minor my vassals I got all Moscow provinces except capital. LIT annex Twer and signed peace.

After the second war map was:

 

[unmerged(96838)]

Do you continue game?

In my game after truce Moscow DOW again, but I was waiting for that. Alliances were the same, but only NOV and LIT fought against all other Russians (POL and MOZ just waited). I concentrated at first only on Moscow and finally got control on all her province. After that I took Twer and made separated peace – made all Russians minor my vassals I got all Moscow provinces except capital. LIT annex Twer and signed peace.

After the second war map was:

yeah, i want to form Russia and expand expand expand, never played with them before, but now i am, just wanna power thru.

Im thinking of doing an aar with this particular game, but basically once I gained those 4 grain provs off Lith, everything changed, i could field a much larger army and was in a position to strike at moscovy from a different direction.

Your Nov looks unstoppable now also, once you find your feet, winter does the rest

 

[Jotvingis]

Your Nov looks unstoppable now also, once you find your feet, winter does the rest

I‘m not sure After the truce my allies declared war for Moscow and Poland took Tula because of leader (NOV still without any leader). After that was long peace, so I attempted to develop and made all nord colonies to cities except Karelia. NOV provinces are very poor, so it is difficult to develop. My NOV military skills are still very poor even I took event +1 offensive and +1 quality for 300 ducats (took a thirst loon) so I still don't leave POL-LIT aliance.

In 1449 TO attacked isolated Pskow which don‘t have any army (Pskow is my vassal without any alliance). At this moment I don‘t know what to do – DOW for TO or just wait until TO annex Pskow and when DOW for TO. I think the last variant is better because to diploannex is needed a lot of cash.

 

[unmerged(96838)]

why didnt you annex Pskov when you had the chance? (instead of vassalizing) did they have lots of cash at the time?

as for the +1 offensive/ quality, i dont think its worth it for such a poor nation, loans can be killers.

...I dont play agceep, im guessing you start with good relations with Lith?

 

[Jotvingis]

why didnt you annex Pskov when you had the chance? (instead of vassalizing) did they have lots of cash at the time?

as for the +1 offensive/ quality, i dont think its worth it for such a poor nation, loans can be killers.

...I dont play agceep, im guessing you start with good relations with Lith?

I vassalized Pskow, Twer and Ryazan because I needed money (for tax collectors and colonists). I got aroud 200 ducats from each of minors. I think even somebody will annex my vassals, I could retrieved these province later without BB because they are my cores.

I also hate loons but you know how weak millitary is NOW in the beginning.

Relations with Lithuania at the start was +25.

What about your campaign?

 

[BurningEGO]

I also hate loons but you know how weak millitary is NOW in the beginning.

How can you hate loons?

They are cute!

 

[Jotvingis]

How can you hate loons?

They are cute!

Because loons have to be paid wiht interest. But sometimes it is worth

 

[unmerged(96838)]

I vassalized Pskow, Twer and Ryazan because I needed money (for tax collectors and colonists). I got aroud 200 ducats from each of minors. I think even somebody will annex my vassals, I could retrieved these province later without BB because they are my cores.

I also hate loons but you know how weak millitary is NOW in the beginning.

Relations with Lithuania at the start was +25.

What about your campaign?

i would have done the same with those minors given the chance, money is really needed with Nov, i was fortunate that poland got some nice peace deals, giving me a share of that.

Lith in vanilla starts with -75 relations, they kept dishonouring our alliance, but fortunately kept joining, for the early crucial wars anyway....later they made an all important alliance with Eire :wacko:, thats when i hit them (with poland).

 

[unmerged(15247)]

why didnt you annex Pskov when you had the chance? (instead of vassalizing) did they have lots of cash at the time?

as for the +1 offensive/ quality, i dont think its worth it for such a poor nation, loans can be killers.

...I dont play agceep, im guessing you start with good relations with Lith?

just as an opinion regarding your approach; your reasoning needs a lot of adjutments. loans can be amortized(as decrease interest if can not pay, etc). annexing is always bad( more to do with instant relations drop even if have 0 bb at that time).+1off/deff makes a LOT of diffrence( even if the random fights are still happening).

 

[unmerged(15247)]

I vassalized Pskow, Twer and Ryazan because I needed money (for tax collectors and colonists). I got aroud 200 ducats from each of minors. I think even somebody will annex my vassals, I could retrieved these province later without BB because they are my cores.

I also hate loons but you know how weak millitary is NOW in the beginning.

Relations with Lithuania at the start was +25.

What about your campaign?

correct in my opinion; besides you get permanent cb to be used at the time of your choosing

 

[unmerged(96838)]

just as an opinion regarding your approach; your reasoning needs a lot of adjutments...

Ok ...

well I already agreed about the vassalizations , but i stand by the preference not to take the loan for +1 qual/offen...fine for rich countries, not so for poor imo.

 

[BurningEGO]

just as an opinion regarding your approach; your reasoning needs a lot of adjutments. loans can be amortized(as decrease interest if can not pay, etc). annexing is always bad( more to do with instant relations drop even if have 0 bb at that time).+1off/deff makes a LOT of diffrence( even if the random fights are still happening).

Its very relative. At the start of the game most russian states can build countless armies with 300 ducats, since each infantry unit costs only 3. Hell, at the start of the game money is so crucial, that i dont even build TCs till i am done with wars as Novgorod. But generally i wouldnt mind taking a loan and pay some interests for some extra DP sliders, either (specially 2 good ones).

As for force annexations, usually yes, but dont understimate one annexation here or there if you know what you are doing. 6 BB sometimes is a low price to pay (i usually dont mind annexing 1 COT nation specially in multiplayer - cant afford the risk of having someone getting it). And if you are going to sit tight waiting for your cores in the east, you will have time enough to digest all of that BB.

 

[unmerged(15247)]

Its very relative. At the start of the game most russian states can build countless armies with 300 ducats, since each infantry unit costs only 3. Hell, at the start of the game money is so crucial, that i dont even build TCs till i am done with wars as Novgorod. But generally i wouldnt mind taking a loan and pay some interests for some extra DP sliders, either (specially 2 good ones).

As for force annexations, usually yes, but dont understimate one annexation here or there if you know what you are doing. 6 BB sometimes is a low price to pay (i usually dont mind annexing 1 COT nation specially in multiplayer - cant afford the risk of having someone getting it). And if you are going to sit tight waiting for your cores in the east, you will have time enough to digest all of that BB.

(of course in multiplayer anyone annexes cots, however that has many times a total diffrent approach)

-that's the exact "catch"..."sitting tight " as you say...well i can gurantee you that in long time you "loose", like that. russia especially can not just sit (check my aar for details). the biggest problem with sitting is that lithuania has time to convert MOST of your future cores = costs you more to convert them back+ wrong religion etc.
in short my whole approach is this until 1480's(ANY mod):

1-take all novgorod provinces
2-separate peace in doing that and let one of your minor allies ANNEX it(NOV)
2-ban the ally that did annex it, war him, take the cot. all this for 2 bb( 2 dowing)
3-do not colonize karelia, just the other 2(or 3 depending on mod)
4-make one cavalery army, get MA from poland(in all mods they alied especially in vanila always happens as suc)
5-either if lithuania dows or YOU , take the cavalery army with lightening speed to poland, kill ALL her troops and leaders, siege it, and vassal it. meanwhile lithuania wasting all her manpower in russian winter(no matter even if they take YOUR capital). after peace poland (as leader versus separate), invite her in YOUR alline, thus it breaks all ties with lithuania. after that is way too easy,take 2 ukrainian prov from lithuania and VASSAL her.CAPTURE PODOLIA FIRST from poland.(sometimes do that separate as your allies vassal can chop her more after especially poland getting the catholic provinces and your orthodox minors some of your own religion as well. like that not only you save the important ukrainian provinces from beeing converted but you also have a solid base in that area to vassal moldovia/walachia/etc. before you know it you face the turks. and ALL that for 8 bb TOTAL.
5- around 1440's when you get the great diplomatic russian monarch ANNEX lithuania(owning her 2 richest ukrainian provinces you took from herself and 1 from poland-podolia, will give you more then enough economic output for her to accept even from the first attempt, without ever breaking, and you should easilly have 10 aristocracy too by then as russia)...and i gurantee you that it will be SAME bb you would get as you would be "sitting" and waiting for cores...even better, ukraine is SECURED (this strategy also avoids golden horde vs lithuania wars).
6- nevermind sweeden EVER at least until 1600's. if they dow let them siege...within 2-3 years they run out of manpower and sue for peace even if they CONTROL some of your provinces...and the poor ones too that have not much impact on your economy.

and between 1440's and 1480 you can wait digesting THAT bb that was taken/used EFFECTIVELLY protecting and managing your future interests
usually in same war i vassal teutonics and prussia too, especially after poland gets into the war or she WILL dow them right after(for danzing).poland will ALWAYS generate you effcetive wars especially earlier on. and with you as the leader of alliance you can easilly manipulate WHAT she gets, as making sure that NONE of your allies are going on an annexing spree and get you in a permanent state of war by THEM accumulating too much bb that is...

 

[Raze]

I don't do Novgorod since they are pathetic. But I guess the goal would be to position yourself within a strong alliance, probably Denmark's. After that I would try to take out as many Russian minors as I could before Moscow gets them before taking out Moscow and Suzdal itself.

 

[unmerged(96838)]

I don't do Novgorod since they are pathetic.

That is why you should do them, you can watch the ugly duckling turn into a powerful swan

 

[Jotvingis]

i would have done the same with those minors given the chance, money is really needed with Nov, i was fortunate that poland got some nice peace deals, giving me a share of that.

Lith in vanilla starts with -75 relations, they kept dishonouring our alliance, but fortunately kept joining, for the early crucial wars anyway....later they made an all important alliance with Eire :wacko:, thats when i hit them (with poland).

Have you finished with Moscow? Post some screenshots.

 

[unmerged(96838)]

Have you finished with Moscow? Post some screenshots.

Yep, Im at 1499 right now, just came off an awesome war with the all powerful Mongol/Turkic alliance of GH/Nogai/Ak Koyunlu/Uzbeks/Khazak Horde (really great fun), I will start an AAR either tomorrow or saturday...with plenty of screenies

 

[Jotvingis]

In 1484 I finished long war against POL and LIT – I took two provinces from POL (one of it was Tula) and one province (Twer) from LIT + I vassalized LIT. After this war I got option to become Russian empire. As Russia I got some good events – 30k troops and claim for almost all Russian provinces. I think after that NOV (as Russia) easy could win this game but I resign from this game because Russia attacks George (unfortunately in real life).

How strange is history – in XIV century Lithuania could destroy Moscow but they took two times some ransom after sieges of this city. If I was at this time advisor I suggested destroy Moscow at any price. In this case history for Lithuania and other countries could be better...