Novgorod, how do you do it?

[unmerged(96838)]

Wanna play a game with Russia *never really given them a go * (vanilla) and thought it would be nice to have Ugric culture, but the first series of wars seem impossible, Ive tried allying with Poland/Lithuania and Denmark/Sweden/Norway...

Denmark's alliance seems best as that keeps the western border 'safe', but Muscovy and the ever powerful minors...Pskov, Tver and Suzdal appear invincible, Novgorod's DP sliders are horrible for battle....

What have you done to make a successful Novgorod empire?

I think Ive started about 30 times in the last couple of days (once im forced to take a loan I restart, as its practically impossible to ever pay back)

 

[unmerged(15247)]

Wanna play a game with Russia *never really given them a go * (vanilla) and thought it would be nice to have Ugric culture, but the first series of wars seem impossible, Ive tried allying with Poland/Lithuania and Denmark/Sweden/Norway...

Denmark's alliance seems best as that keeps the western border 'safe', but Muscovy and the ever powerful minors...Pskov, Tver and Suzdal appear invincible, Novgorod's DP sliders are horrible for battle....

What have you done to make a successful Novgorod empire?

I think Ive started about 30 times in the last couple of days (once im forced to take a loan I restart, as its practically impossible to ever pay back)

actually i never tried them but what i can say is that the ugric culture is not an issue overall( might make a diffrence at start only, but due to your sliders and position , you are way better starting as muscovy( i do not remember , but i think she gets ugric culture in 1700's). regardless, just a thought, and what mod are you playing?

 

[unmerged(96838)]

actually i never tried them but what i can say is that the ugric culture is not an issue overall( might make a diffrence at start only, but due to your sliders and position , you are way better starting as muscovy( i do not remember , but i think she gets ugric culture in 1700's). regardless, just a thought, and what mod are you playing?

Muscovy is a piece of cake, solely because they get leaders...

Muscovy/Russia does not get Ugric culture (in vanilla)...

Its just Id like to have the extra culture...I guess I'll just persevere with it and hope for some lucky breaks.

 

[unmerged(1047)]

I've done it once or twice; you need to get into the same alliance with Sweden for a while, and use any opportunity to cut down Muscovy. Ignore (if you can) the other Russian minors at first.

Once you get strong enough to hold off Sweden - or bribe them into being friendly - try to jump into the TO's and/or Lithuania's alliance. Even better, if the chance comes, form one with Sweden and/or the TO and/or Lithuania yourself.

 

[unmerged(84239)]

Muscovy is a piece of cake, solely because they get leaders...

Muscovy/Russia does not get Ugric culture (in vanilla)...

Its just Id like to have the extra culture...I guess I'll just persevere with it and hope for some lucky breaks.

Want extra culture?

Do it with Lithuania in AGCEEP

Easier then Novgorod for sure.

 

[The Swert]

Hmm. Novgorod is a tough one. One of the most fun nations i've played. Indeed I have succeeded a few times however I can't give any particularly good advice to you.

Perhaps you can try playing on an easier difficulty level until you are able to come up with a successful strategy. Unfortunately though, each game plays out differently so it's hard to use a strict strategy, you need to be adaptable.

Try play for time initially. You can't form Russia in the first 10 years but you can sure die. If you survive those first wars you can hopefully regroup and find some allies. During your peace with Muscovy you can prey on Tver and Pskov; they tend to be isolated.

Playing Novgorod is good because you get the chance of getting 4 cultures: Ugric, Russian, Greek and Altai

 

[Underhand]

I have never played Novgorod beyond the first decade or so ages ago when I was a worse player , but I have a suggestion that might work. Give all of your provinces to Muscovy and hypertech. I suggest you enter Denmark's alliance at the start of the game so that Sweden can't declare war on you, but don't call your allies when Muscovy DoWs. Mint loot from Muscovy's provinces as long as you can, and then give them all of your non-capital provinces. During the truce period, butter up the Muscovites by making and breaking royal marriages with them (you'll need to use one or more cash gifts to get through the playing-hard-to-get phase from -5 to +25 relations). Since you'll only have one province the stability hits will not be problematic. Get into an alliance with Muscovy and keep raising relations until you can get military access, and once they've annexed the other Russian minors you'll be entirely surrounded and therefore almost completely safe as long as you don't call Muscovy into wars. At that point, get to looting Lithuania or somewhere else big and boost your tech progress. Once you've got, say, infra 5, trade 5 and land 9, you can start beating the hell out of Muscovy and you'll soon be a high-tech, rich and powerful Russia.

 

[BurningEGO]

Eh. Havent ever thought of hyperteching with such a nation as Novgorod. But are you sure you can actually reach all that tech before Muscowy forms Russia?

 

[Underhand]

Eh. Havent ever thought of hyperteching with such a nation as Novgorod. But are you sure you can actually reach all that tech before Muscowy forms Russia?

You've got a CoT in your capital and you're just a short walk from Lithuania, one of ws2_32's favoured looting targets (I prefer Egypt, but that's a bit of a trek from the Baltic ). Pour a substantial amount of that loot into tech research (because with one province what do you have to spend cash on beyond troops and one refinery?) and you should get those techs well in advance of 1520 - the year the FAQ forum says Russia forms. Besides, you've got your own event to form Russia, so if Russia forms you just have to destroy it. In fact I would aim for around 1490 to achieve all those techs - and maybe naval 9 too - since I easily managed all four as a one-province Ottoman Empire (same tech group) in Thrace even before I'd heard of looting.

An annoyance doing this would be the inability to trade outside of Europe because you lack a port, but you can either wait until you start expanding, or pick one up as a second province when you've saturated Europe.

 

[BurningEGO]

Deal is OE got a lot of great events once they conquer constantinople which will make their centralization and possibly their inovative slider better then they already are (and thus tech speed). Novgorod on the other hand starts with inno 5 and centra 3 and wont be able to move any except by normal means. Also worth of noting is that Novgorod only has a BT 9 while Constantinople got BT 17, basically the double.

Regarding looting in lithuania i do not know if that is actually good bussiness - Poland is usually allied with lithuania and possibly with hungary and bohemia, the biggest AIs in the area. They wont be able to invade you, IF you do not have a border with them - but i have actually seen Lithuania DOWing Tver and annexing them. That causes a problem. The possibility of getting a border with Lithuania is higher then you think: the TO usually annexes Pskov, and then often engages the Polish alliance, and thus lithuania - maybe Pskov will get into hands you wouldnt like to see. Or maybe they will just use the war against the TO to walk over, freely, to your capital, novgorod (last point is highly unlikely though, since the comonwealth will be fighting every crap german minor in the meanwhile).

But you are possibly correct - looting here and there will be obviously possible, but, unfortunately, i do doubt synchronized looting (or looting the AI for decades straight after ocupying all their provinces) would be possible to achieve. Nevertheless it does sound like a tricky bussiness. Better play the old fashioned way (and get more fun out of it as well).

 

[Monkii-sama]

I tried playing as Novgorod recently, got a royal marriage with sweden and teutonic order from the start. Sweden was fast with breaking up the union so I got a break from that. So the main problem was muscowy. I let them rape me for a while, with them sending massive amounts of troops into siege at winter I had no problem with them doing that. Though I had to take a loan, no big deal, so I could hold them off during the summers. I did this for a couple of years and tried to butter up the other russion minors so I could create an anti-muscowy alliance. I had to give away Archangelsk to muscowy for a peace later on but I didn't mind since it would be good of muscowy colonized that area and turned it into a town. They do the investment and I nab it later I thought.

Golden Horde eventually DOW'd Muscowy so I thought I had a chance to finnaly get archangelsk back. I DOW'd muscowy, bad move since lithuania then steamrolled me with massive amounts of cavalry and muscowy still had a massive army standing in Moskva.

After a year or so I left the game, as long as lithuania doesn't kill you you should be fine. The other nations you can handle but that orange blob will always be a problem for Novgorod.

I restarted and tried some other strategies but basically they all fell apart when Lithuania dow's.

 

[unmerged(96838)]

I've done it once or twice; you need to get into the same alliance with Sweden for a while, and use any opportunity to cut down Muscovy. Ignore (if you can) the other Russian minors at first.

Once you get strong enough to hold off Sweden - or bribe them into being friendly - try to jump into the TO's and/or Lithuania's alliance. Even better, if the chance comes, form one with Sweden and/or the TO and/or Lithuania yourself.

Sure, something like that sounds about right, just a matter of getting a few breaks I guess.

Hmm. Novgorod is a tough one. One of the most fun nations i've played. Indeed I have succeeded a few times however I can't give any particularly good advice to you.

Perhaps you can try playing on an easier difficulty level until you are able to come up with a successful strategy. Unfortunately though, each game plays out differently so it's hard to use a strict strategy, you need to be adaptable.

Try play for time initially. You can't form Russia in the first 10 years but you can sure die. If you survive those first wars you can hopefully regroup and find some allies. During your peace with Muscovy you can prey on Tver and Pskov; they tend to be isolated.

Playing Novgorod is good because you get the chance of getting 4 cultures: Ugric, Russian, Greek and Altai

Yes time does help. I cant play lower levels, its tempting, but it just wouldnt feel right, trying another 50 times and succeeding once on very hard would feel more satisfying

I have never played Novgorod beyond the first decade or so ages ago when I was a worse player , but I have a suggestion that might work. Give all of your provinces to Muscovy and hypertech. I suggest you enter Denmark's alliance at the start of the game so that Sweden can't declare war on you, but don't call your allies when Muscovy DoWs. Mint loot from Muscovy's provinces as long as you can, and then give them all of your non-capital provinces. During the truce period, butter up the Muscovites by making and breaking royal marriages with them (you'll need to use one or more cash gifts to get through the playing-hard-to-get phase from -5 to +25 relations). Since you'll only have one province the stability hits will not be problematic. Get into an alliance with Muscovy and keep raising relations until you can get military access, and once they've annexed the other Russian minors you'll be entirely surrounded and therefore almost completely safe as long as you don't call Muscovy into wars. At that point, get to looting Lithuania or somewhere else big and boost your tech progress. Once you've got, say, infra 5, trade 5 and land 9, you can start beating the hell out of Muscovy and you'll soon be a high-tech, rich and powerful Russia.

Sounds plausible on paper, but in reality money is in short supply (100 ducats to start in *very hard*), Novgorod starts at -150 relations with Muscovy (costs ALOT to get relations anywhere near the place your suggesting), plus every man and his dog (who borders you) usually declare war on you in the first few months...plus looting Muscovys territory is hardly worthwhile, with the amount of enemy troops, low supply limits and the winter combination wasting ones army away fast.

Besides, Novgorod's soldiers fight like little girls, getting slapped all over the place

 

[unmerged(96838)]

I tried playing as Novgorod recently, got a royal marriage with sweden and teutonic order from the start. Sweden was fast with breaking up the union so I got a break from that. So the main problem was muscowy. I let them rape me for a while, with them sending massive amounts of troops into siege at winter I had no problem with them doing that. Though I had to take a loan, no big deal, so I could hold them off during the summers. I did this for a couple of years and tried to butter up the other russion minors so I could create an anti-muscowy alliance. I had to give away Archangelsk to muscowy for a peace later on but I didn't mind since it would be good of muscowy colonized that area and turned it into a town. They do the investment and I nab it later I thought.

Golden Horde eventually DOW'd Muscowy so I thought I had a chance to finnaly get archangelsk back. I DOW'd muscowy, bad move since lithuania then steamrolled me with massive amounts of cavalry and muscowy still had a massive army standing in Moskva.

After a year or so I left the game, as long as lithuania doesn't kill you you should be fine. The other nations you can handle but that orange blob will always be a problem for Novgorod.

I restarted and tried some other strategies but basically they all fell apart when Lithuania dow's.

ok, maybe i should try and push on, despite the loan (just i hate it)...Lithuania hasnt been the problem so far, its just when the minors smell blood, they pile in, making it almost impossible with their huge armies.

edit - giving up the colonies does sound like a great idea, wil try that to get them Muscovites off my back early on

 

[Underhand]

Deal is OE got a lot of great events once they conquer constantinople which will make their centralization and possibly their inovative slider better then they already are (and thus tech speed). Novgorod on the other hand starts with inno 5 and centra 3 and wont be able to move any except by normal means. Also worth of noting is that Novgorod only has a BT 9 while Constantinople got BT 17, basically the double.

Yep, but I believe the shortfall could be made up with loot. Something I forgot while writing the earlier posts is that the OE gets some events that boost its military techs by what is a substantial amount if you're that small, but I would still expect a pre-1500 deadline to be within reach.

stuff

I would not try to control all of Lithuania. I very much doubt it'd be feasible without considerable expense and hardship. Instead I would wander around their territory pouring money into my techs and avoiding battles, and pull back when winter threatened. Synchronising loot very well is not hugely important for a one-province minor while it is hyperteching. A larger country building manufactories, on the other hand...

As for the border, one thing I thought of but didn't mention - because having not tried this out I wasn't sure it was necessary - was making Muscovy annex Tver and Pskov. DoW these two countries once you're allied with Muscovy and let them be annexed, and suddenly you're completely surrounded by Muscovy. Don't invite them to wars you declare and you're safe from the foes concerned. It may even be the case that you can be leader of the alliance with Muscovy and always dishonour it then immediately reform it when they call you to wars. Manage that and you'll never be at war with the same enemies as Muscovy, and so will be almost completely safe

Sounds plausible on paper, but in reality money is in short supply (100 ducats to start in *very hard*), Novgorod starts at -150 relations with Muscovy (costs ALOT to get relations anywhere near the place your suggesting), plus every man and his dog (who borders you) usually declare war on you in the first few months...plus looting Muscovys territory is hardly worthwhile, with the amount of enemy troops, low supply limits and the winter combination wasting ones army away fast.

If you need more cavalry to loot, that starting money should go on cav. Just slip small cavalry armies into Muscovite territory when you can (and when it's not winter ) to nab the loot. Nobody but Moscow and Sweden generally DoWs Novgorod immediately, right? (Hence my advice to join the Danish alliance to keep Sweden off your back.)

Raising relations with Muscovy is easy. Just make and break royal marriages with every diplomat you can muster. With just one province, you can ignore the stab hits this involves. It'll just take some time, but you've got the five-year truce to do it in You just have to get into positive relations to get an alliance, and then you've got all the time in the world to raise it to +120 or so for military access. Remember to keep some cash for gifts because Muscovy will probably not accept royal marriages between -5 and +25 relations.

Besides, Novgorod's soldiers fight like little girls, getting slapped all over the place

Doesn't matter. You'll be wanting to lose the war with Muscovy, and just to loot Lithuania, so fighting battles in either war is unnecessary

 

[unmerged(96838)]

YESSSSSSSS!!! Finally getting somewhere!!!!

The big break thru came when I turned on Lith (with Polands help), then made a seperate peace with one of Liths allies, before taking 4 provs off them and looting a fair bit in the process....then Sweden attacked, but managed to secure their Lappland colony (as Im now able to field a large army), before going after Denmarks two colonies...just let them hit Ingermanland (large army stationed there) time after time - building warscore, then dow Muscovy/Suzdal for access to Denmarks colonies (thru Karelia), now in nice war with the two Russians...MASS SLAUGHTER Muahahahahaha

I gave up two colonies (as suggested here by Monkii-sama), bought me some time earlier, now gonna get em back and more!

Thanks for the tips, was almost ready to give up and play the Ottos (for some easy killing)

As for the hyperteching, maybe feasible, but its not a proper game, I mean, what ruler would give up territory so there 'tech' could 'speed up', ridiculous

 

[unmerged(49083)]

What's your badboy now? It's bad enough everyone trying to rape you, but when you get badboy I suppose some random HRE and their little friends will declare war on you, that'll upset their friends and they'll declare war on you and so it's the never-ending downward spiral!

 

[Underhand]

As for the hyperteching, maybe feasible, but its not a proper game, I mean, what ruler would give up territory so there 'tech' could 'speed up', ridiculous

Oh, absolutely. I spend some of my time puzzling over how to revamp the tech system to encourage more realistic behaviour. But in the game as it currently is, it's a very sensible thing to do

Congrats on the progress though.

 

[unmerged(96838)]

What's your badboy now? It's bad enough everyone trying to rape you, but when you get badboy I suppose some random HRE and their little friends will declare war on you, that'll upset their friends and they'll declare war on you and so it's the never-ending downward spiral!

It was only 8.9/38 at that time, im very careful with what BB I use, although its not like Im growing at an exponential rate, so far so good.

Oh, absolutely. I spend some of my time puzzling over how to revamp the tech system to encourage more realistic behaviour. But in the game as it currently is, it's a very sensible thing to do

Congrats on the progress though.

Sensible.......nah....as BurningEGO says, it makes a boring game.

Thxs, hope to make a simple AAR of it


..................BTW, this event below, I only have to own Moscow and Novgorod to become Russia dont I? (just want to make sure) cheers

#The Empire of Russia#
event = {
id = 3582
trigger = {
owned = {
province = 270 # Moscow
data = -1
}

owned = { province = 274 data = -1 } # Novgorod

OR = {
owned = { province = 268 data = -1 } # Vologda
owned = { province = 272 data = -1 } # Nizhgorod
owned = { province = 448 data = -1 } # Ryazan
owned = { province = 271 data = -1 } # Vladimir
owned = { province = 277 data = -1 } # Pskov
owned = { province = 278 data = -1 } # Tver
}
NOT = {
exists = RUS
}
atwar = no


..................Also this one, does it mean if i have all those sliders values or above, the event will trigger?


#The Time of Trouble#
event = {

id = 3414
trigger = {
domestic = {
type = centralization
value = 5
}
domestic = {
type = aristocracy
value = 4
}
domestic = {
type = serfdom
value = 5
}

 

[Garbon]

You have to own Moscow, Novogord and then one of the Russian provinces listed inside of that OR trigger. And yes to the second event question.

 

[unmerged(96838)]

You have to own Moscow, Novogord and then one of the Russian provinces listed inside of that OR trigger. And yes to the second event question.

Ok, thxs for that.