Novgorod and Autonomy in 1.8

[Meridian235]

So, Novgorod is no Muscovy. We all know this. Even the lesser of the Muscovite ideas are still pretty good (+0.5 Army Tradition, +10% PE). The good ones are truly spectacular (+50% force limits, core creation cost, +50% manpower, -10% Technology costs). Novgorod's ideas aren't horrible. +0.5 republican tradition is really good. The rest are pretty average, and a bit unfocused. The ambition of 20% fort defense is pretty disappointing, and it would be nice something a little more useful. But that's not my main concern.

Novgorod is, for the most part, locked in to playing as a merchant republic. You can collapse into a dictatorship and eventually a monarchy, but that renders the strongest of your national ideas worthless. The new Autonomy mechanic makes things really difficult for merchant republics who want to expand. Novgorod has no means to switch to a government type which has a monthly autonomy modifier, aside from abandoning the republic altogether. If we're going to play as a monarchy, it's hard to argue that Muscovy isn't superior in every respect.

Suggestion: Allow Novgorod to use Russian Ideas upon forming Russia, and change government to a monarchy.

Novgorod forming Russia is ahistoric anyways, so what's to stop Wiz from changing things around? The Novogorodian ideas and government type are frankly... useless for Russia. Players who don't want to use the Russian ideas or switch to a monarchy would be free to remain as Novgorod.

This would give Russia players an alternate start, without the cripplingly bad government type and ideas for building a Russian empire.

 

[IIWW]

There is no way to change from merchant republic to different republic types? thats weird.

 

[bbqftw]

The new Autonomy mechanic makes things really difficult for merchant republics who want to expand.

lack of intrinsic LA reduction makes merchant republic just 'strong' instead of 'stupidly overpowered' - I mean one of the bonuses essentially gives a free 1/2-3/4 of a manufactory to every non-subject, non-owned province in a node that you have strong control in.

I would say that as a merchant republic, if more than 20% of your income is tax / production (the things most impacted by LA), than you're doing something wrong.

Also, Novgorodian ideas are not exactly terrible - with high PP you really can afford to chain re-elect on a consistent basis (you even have a dual bonus to privateer efficiency to keep it up!), and after playing a trade-focused game I've learned to appreciate that naval tradition is actually extremely underrated - it easily accounts for the bulk of your trade steering %. 20% manpower is above average (the typical idea range is 10-25%).

I can't quite recall offhand whether orthodox -> reformed requires reformed to be dominant religion or only 1 province occupied.

 

[Artyom87]

There is no way to change from merchant republic to different republic types? thats weird.

yeah thats retarded.

Forming Russia with novgorod is fun and challenging but then you get to the point and realize you have no manpower partly because you have no autonomy reduction and you basically never will

 

[bbqftw]

you are a merchant republic, you can hire artillery mercs (only slightly exaggerating, I would hire merc cavalry as Venice or Hansa because why not)

there is also manual decreasing autonomy which is fine as long as you're selective about where you use it (don't spam it on low BT provinces)

 

[Less]

Merchant republics are an OP government type in 1444. Lacking -LA only makes them slightly less OP if you are going on a massive conquering spree later in the game. But even that can be circumvented, more than -10% base unrest effectively makes lowering autonomy free, and as a Merchant Republic its in fact to your advantage to conquer only CoTs and leave the rest of the land to your vassals (thereby getting the +goods bonus while keeping their lowered autonomy). So make Muscovy's ideas work for you, vassal them and utilize their absurd manpower bonuses.

Also, keep in mind that overall the Autonomy mechanic works in the favor of trading nations. Autonomy ONLY reduces tax, production, and (by half) trade power. Trade value is never affected, so on the whole its the rest of the world who feels the pain, while you are drawing a proportionately greater amount of their income into your coffers.

That said I agree that their NIs are pretty pathetic. They should really get some further trade bonus, Portugal puts them to shame. Considering that Novgorod is generally intended to die early on buffing their later ideas/Ambition wouldn't get in the way of AI Muscovy vs. AI Novgorod too much. At least Patriarchal Authority's -tax income plays into your not-relying-on-tax strategy though.

 

[Kansai-kun]

Suggestion: Allow Novgorod to use Russian Ideas upon forming Russia, and change government to a monarchy.

That's a bad idea - people are already complaining about losing their old ideas/governemt when forming Italy. If you form Russia as Novgorod, you should have the choice to stay as a republic and keep your ideas.

 

[CaptainChiatrol]

I like novgorod ideas.

I think I just like the +0.5 republican tradition though.

If I compare them to hamburg, colonial nations, or united states I guess they do fall a bit weak and one of those is supposed to b a generic.

It's always important to remember if you see more then -10 on the unrest it's a good time to burst -25 autonomy.

 

[Ultrix Prime]

yeah thats retarded.

Forming Russia with novgorod is fun and challenging but then you get to the point and realize you have no manpower partly because you have no autonomy reduction and you basically never will

There is a base reduction of .1 for being at peace.

A key way to deal with LA is to not use it unless it is absolutely necessary. If you allow a revolt to occur, fight the armies and put down the revolt, this reduces the unrest a great deal (tbh, I don't know the math of this part and haven't been able to find where it's documented). I have seen 10% unrest drop to 0 once a revolt is put down in a province. So fighting a revolt is a way to rapidly drop unrest. You're spending some manpower to reduce the unrest and thus not suffering the negative effects of increasing LA.

I use this approach all the time now and almost never increase LA. It's sometimes necessary to use LA in the early game when your manpower is small, but over time, just let the revolt occur and put it down and repeat this a few times and you'll end up with 0% unrest across your provinces.

So it seems important to remember that rebels, other than with events, don't keep spawning randomly any more. In the past versions, putting a revolt down did not mean that the revolts would stop occurring. For all intents and purposes, in 1.8 putting revolts down means ending them and no more rebels.

So consider trying to spend some of your manpower, which replenishes and which you can increase and cause to replenish more rapidly with ideas, to reduce unrest by fighting rebellions directly.

 

[aqvamare]

You are a merchant republic, your army should be 100% merc infantery, 100% normal cavalery (with merc caverlery when you need fast more) and 100% normal cannons.

You normally do not burn any of your manpower in wars...you do not need any manypower boost...

And your expansion as novogrod should be a switch between russian and prussian area of the map. You want danzig , ostpreussen and riga. After this lübeck, and than channel...

Than you can expand into "asia".

 

[Meridian235]

Let's be clear. I'm not complaining that I can't win with Novgorod. I also understand that merchant republics are a good government type, and don't feel that they are unbalanced.

I'm simply pointing out that once you form Russia as Novgorod, the absence of yearly autonomy reduction makes the normal and expected expansion of your new nation exceptionally painful. There are no idea groups that assist with autonomy reduction. Switching to a monarchy to combat autonomy renders your most powerful national idea completely worthless. Your second-best idea is probably either +20% national manpower or +1 merchant/5% trade power. That's seriously underwhelming. Not only are the ideas pretty unfocused, but most of the bonuses are lower. Half a point of army tradition. One diplomatic reputation. One missionary strength. Ivan's Hundred is phenomenal. It basically single-handedly rescues the entire national idea set. It's infuriating to either slog through never-ending autonomy or abandon your nation's greatest strength.

Adding autonomy reduction to one of the idea groups OR THEIR NATIONAL IDEAS would be helpful for Novgorod. A decision to reform the trade republic into a noble or oligarchic republic would work too. I suggested the Russian traditions with tag switch idea because that's how I would like to play them, as a different start for Russia. The endgame for both nations is fairly similar, but one nation has ideas and a government type that work after the introduction of autonomy, and the other simply does not.

Frankly, after thinking about it and writing this post, I'm changing my recommendation:

Replace national ambition "20% fort defense" with -0.2% monthly autonomy reduction. Yes, this is a powerful tradition. It will likely be the only form of autonomy reduction Novgorod sees. It's going to come at around the same time that Monarchies hit ADM12 and Administrative Republic. Considering the rest of the idea set, it's not unreasonable.

 

[Less]

There is an idea group for reducing autonomy. It's called Humanist. You take it and as soon as you take a province you press lower autonomy for -25 instantly with no unrest. It's really powerful. Indeed with high Patriarch Authority you probably don't even need Humanist. You're really overestimating the penalty of autonomy and underestimating how quickly it goes away IMO.

Why do you assume that the "normal and expected expansion" of a merchant republic is to blob uncontrollably? I'd say that Moscovy and Novgorod are intended to be played completely different.

 

[Pilot00]

They could circumvent a lot of the formable nation problems simply by adding a single pop up that would question you weather you want to keep your own ideas or keep the formable nations ones. That said ALL formable nations should have their own.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Lowering autonomy every 30 years is weaker than .1 monthly ticking (which will remove 1.2% per year, or 36 per 30 years compared to 25). It's useful, but no substitute for a good -LA government type.

This is the one downside to merchant republics, and they get a lot more upside than theocracies which also lack the bonus.

You used to be able to switch out of merchant republics freely, but not back into them...assuming you had the proper tech for other republic types. Is that no longer the case?

 

[Meridian235]

There is an idea group for reducing autonomy. It's called Humanist. You take it and as soon as you take a province you press lower autonomy for -25 instantly with no unrest. It's really powerful. Indeed with high Patriarch Authority you probably don't even need Humanist. You're really overestimating the penalty of autonomy and underestimating how quickly it goes away IMO.

Why do you assume that the "normal and expected expansion" of a merchant republic is to blob uncontrollably? I'd say that Moscovy and Novgorod are intended to be played completely different.

The normal and expected expansion of RUSSIA is to blob uncontrollably. The fact that you remain a merchant republic upon forming the nation is the basis of my argument. Once you embark upon the decision to form RUSSIA, you have already made the decision to play the mirror/reverse Muscovy > Russia campaign, and are now sitting in roughly the same position that you would have, had you elected for a Muscovy start.

If you don't choose to form Russia, and instead fancy some kind of weird trade republic/baltic sea game while ignoring your mortal enemy with stronger national ideas to the south, have at it. You aren't forming Russia anyway, and you are free to play whatever non-blobbing trade republic game you so desire. It's a sandbox after all.

But in the real world, and for most players, Novgorod is a more challenging and slightly different Russia start. Sure, there are other ways to deal with autonomy, like taking a third ADM group (You are taking expansion and religious, right?). But the most efficient means to control autonomy is a combination of manual reductions, combined with advanced government types that are unavailable to this nation.

Right now, lategame Novgorod isn't much fun. I find myself abandoning games after conquering Muscovy, as I do not want to be locked into a merchant republic playstyle from a nation without the node, position, or ideas to play the trade game.

I suppose my answer could be to NOT play Novgorod, but since I am failing to see any reason anyone WOULD play this nation, save for the more challenging opening, I'm at a loss why things shouldn't be looked at. The option of a republican Russia sounds fun. You used to be able to switch from Merchant to Noble republic. You can't anymore, and that's a problem for Novgorod.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

It's hard to imagine why Novgorod would need religious in SP. Converting Sunni lands is what horde vassals are for.

Forced monarchy swaps just makes a hateful government type more prevalent. If you want to do that with Russia, play as Muscovy :/.

 

[ahyangyi]

It's hard to imagine why Novgorod would need religious in SP. Converting Sunni lands is what horde vassals are for.

Forced monarchy swaps just makes a hateful government type more prevalent. If you want to do that with Russia, play as Muscovy :/.

Well. Horde vassals don't take religious but a Muscovy vassal does. So..........

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Well. Horde vassals don't take religious but a Muscovy vassal does. So..........

Nogai takes religious for certain, and some of the others do as well (IIRC either Uzbek or Kazakh). Oirat does not, but with a full annex --> release bringing it up in tech and the fact that it only has low tax non-Sunni stuff, it doesn't need it either (it does take humanist, easing its revolts). Just 2% from decisions at techs 8/10 would give Oirat the chops to convert 6 tax or less reasonably quickly. How many provinces of higher tax do they have?

You have a few options once you start talking China itself. Lan Xang and Tibet guys even get +strength NIs, and I know for certain Lan Xang takes religious. Considering we're talking about taking humanist as the alternative, and that Novgorod has easy access to plutocratic also, having a few provinces in heathen faiths with -2 or even -4 rr, 0 tolerance and full unity isn't exactly murderer's row, hardly a reason to pick up religious if you have humanist/expansion.

 

[ahyangyi]

Nogai takes religious for certain, and some of the others do as well (IIRC either Uzbek or Kazakh). Oirat does not, but with a full annex --> release bringing it up in tech and the fact that it only has low tax non-Sunni stuff, it doesn't need it either (it does take humanist, easing its revolts). Just 2% from decisions at techs 8/10 would give Oirat the chops to convert 6 tax or less reasonably quickly. How many provinces of higher tax do they have?

You have a few options once you start talking China itself. Lan Xang and Tibet guys even get +strength NIs, and I know for certain Lan Xang takes religious. Considering we're talking about taking humanist as the alternative, and that Novgorod has easy access to plutocratic also, having a few provinces in heathen faiths with -2 or even -4 rr, 0 tolerance and full unity isn't exactly murderer's row, hardly a reason to pick up religious if you have humanist/expansion.

To be honest I have no idea when my vassal will want to convert its provinces. Sometimes it just allow the Sunni provinces to stay there for decades without apparent reasons.......

 

[Meridian235]

Nogai takes religious, but they are cumbersome to vassalize.
As an aside, Kazah opens with Defensive and Offensive... they make a fantastic vassal.

Why religious? Well the CB for one. A true Russia campaign converts those Finns, Tartars, and Siberians to proper Russian citizens. Stability is expensive for republics, and cost reduction is welcomed. It's a fantastic idea group for Russia, and better than Humanist in my opinion. The kicker is that the accepted culture bonus isn't going to do you a lick of good now that the Tartar supergroup has been broken up. If you want full use of the Steppes, you are going to have to religiously and culturally convert them.

But since you don't get a colonist in your NI's, you are probably going to be taking expansion first. There isn't much point taking Exploration instead, as you can focus your early MPs better as Novgorod, and shouldn't have a lot of trouble taking two admin groups.

Muscovy has a tougher time grabbing two admin groups in their first three, but has the option of not taking expansion OR exploration, due to their NI colonist. Influence > Aristocratic > Religious lends itself to a slow Siberia, but saves a ton of DIP points that you can eventually use for culture conversions. IMO getting Super-Kazan integrated, converted, and Russian more than makes up for a slow Siberia. Religious is what makes that happen.