November 1444: State of Byzantium

[MarcusTR]

Game developer trolls and everyone loses their minds:blink:

The title kaiser-i rum was claimed by Mehmed the Conquerer and there wasn't really any other significant claimants to that title as the other ortodox states that claimed for the title Emperor were very weak and they got conquered not long after. As for the Russians sorry but they arrived centuries late...
The title was used for practical means as it gave Sultan power over orthodox citizens and vassal states.

Being heir to rome is very extreme and it's trolling AFAIK but if you take even the joke of it as insult I have no words for that...

 

[Beylerbeyi]

Turkish nationalism does not claim that OE is a continuation of ERE in any way. Turkish nationalists hate the ERE. Some years ago Jacques Chirac said "we should welcome Turkey, we are all the grandchildren of the Byzantines". This made a nationalist Turkish minister so angry that he replied "we are the grandchildren of the Ottomans, they (meaning European Christians) know very well whose grandchildren they are". Implying that the European Christians are grandsons of whores basically.

I mean, if you actually had the slightest idea about the Turkish official line, and the nationalist discourse (an interpretation called the "Turkish-Islamic synthesis"), you would laugh at someone who claims that Turkish nationalism promotes the "Third Rome" position.

Those who say that that OE is a continuation of the ERE (if not a true heir, then in geopolitical terms) are the historians. Practically all good historians- not just the Turks, say that because it is the obvious truth. The inability of the Breivik types and the Balkan nationalists to accept it is due to the lies of their own governments and, I don't know how to put this tenderly, a butthurt of epic proportions.

 

[unmerged(49637)]

To be honest, The Ottomans filled the Eastern Med Power Void left by the Byzantine, the Russians filled the Orthodox religious void left when Constantinople fell. The Italian City States filled the trade void.

IMHO, the only nation that filled Rome's void of nation building, Laws, Government and World Conquest?

...

The English. They were the true heirs of the Roman spirit.
They brought law and colonists to places that had none.
They turned foreign peoples into Englishmen.
They dominated every part of the globe. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/...-of-ten-countries-so-look-out-Luxembourg.html
By the time of the Empire, they were ruled by Parliament (2 houses same as Roman Senate/Assembly)
They used Military Service as a method of advancement for the Nobility
They traded with, conquered and standardized the world in a way no one had since the Romans. (We are all talking in English on this forum)

Which just goes to show that claiming to be the heir of Rome has nothing to do with facts.

 

[MilosM]

To be honest, The Ottomans filled the Eastern Med Power Void left by the Byzantine, the Russians filled the Orthodox religious void left when Constantinople fell. The Italian City States filled the trade void.

IMHO, the only nation that filled Rome's void of nation building, Laws, Government and World Conquest?

...

The English. They were the true heirs of the Roman spirit.
They brought law and colonists to places that had none.
They turned foreign peoples into Englishmen.
They dominated every part of the globe. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/...-of-ten-countries-so-look-out-Luxembourg.html
By the time of the Empire, they were ruled by Parliament (2 houses same as Roman Senate/Assembly)
They used Military Service as a method of advancement for the Nobility
They traded with, conquered and standardized the world in a way no one had since the Romans. (We are all talking in English on this forum)

Which just goes to show that claiming to be the heir of Rome has nothing to do with facts.

Yeah it's true that British Empire was in many ways like Rome.But I think they never claimed to be heirs of Rome? I guess they just created the empire of their own, so instead of trying to be like Rome like many other countries, they just were.

 

[unmerged(463662)]

Yeah it's true that British Empire was in many ways like Rome.But I think they never claimed to be heirs of Rome? I guess they just created the empire of their own, so instead of trying to be like Rome like many other countries, they just were.

No. The British Empire claimed to be the New Jerusalem.

 

[unmerged(463662)]

THE GUESSING GAME


What National Ideas will Byzantium get, and what national ideas does it deserve?

 

[StephenT]

The British certainly felt that they were continuing with the same spirit and heritage as the Romans, as Viscount Palmerston's famous speech in 1850 made clear:

As the Roman, in days of old, held himself free from indignity, when he could say Civis Romanus sum; so also a British subject, in whatever land he may be, shall feel confident that the watchful eye and the strong arm of England, will protect him against injustice and wrong.

However, they certainly didn't claim to be the legal successor of Rome in the sense that they inherited the Empire's treaties and laws and public debts. That would, in my opinion, be the only way to judge who was the "true heir of Rome" in anything except a purely propaganda sense.

 

[JackRendar]

The restoration will come, but it will not be under Palaiologos. The restoration will come under the Komnenoi, as it did before the first fall. I'm convinced that the ERE would have made a full recovery had Andronikos I not been such a power hungry kinslayer dumb ass.

Indeed, the Empire of Trebizond was the last state controlled by the Komnenos dynasty, and I intend to restore the Komnenoi to their rightful place as Emperors of the Roman Empire, and eventually the world, in EU4. Muahahahahahahaaaaa.

 

[Doukan]

The Roman empire will always be special because it made people want to be Romans.
Few other empires can say that.

 

[Alerias]

THE GUESSING GAME


What National Ideas will Byzantium get, and what national ideas does it deserve?

Well we dont know what theyll get. But an easy guess is theyll get the sole bonus they had in Eu3 somewhere in their line: +25% manpower (Theme system).

What else they give them is anyone's guess, but I hope their lineup will be balanced with the Ottoman's overall.

If I had to make more guesses, in no specific order;

Theodosian Walls (+% Fort Defensiveness... well in line with their traditional Defensive slider and the fact they survived the Ottomans long enough to get this)

True Heirs of Rome (+Monthly Prestige)

The World's Desire (Huge tax, manpower and recruitment speed boosts and -RR, but only to the province of Thrace)

Heart of the Faith (-RR for all Orthodox provinces, maybe -% stability costs)

Gateway of the Silk Road (+% Trade Revenue)

Ancient Knowledge (-10% Tech costs)

 

[Doukan]

THE GUESSING GAME


What National Ideas will Byzantium get, and what national ideas does it deserve?

Some sort of "purge the court" to reduce stability costs would be nice.
Also: wrestling control of trade back from the Genoans/Venetians.

 

[unmerged(463662)]

cheaper cores?

testudo shock?

 

[Alerias]

cheaper cores?

Yeah now that you mention it... this pretty much has to be in. Or if we want to get fancy, "Cheaper cores on Christian provinces"

 

[Projekt 919]

If I had To Guess: (With Descriptions and in Order)

Theodosian Walls: +50% Fort Defensiveness. The Theodosian Walls, originally built in the reign of Emperor Theodosius II, were the primary walls of Constantinople and were only breached in 1453. (1204 was through treachery, and 1261 utilized a secret passage) They remained amongst, if not the worlds strongest, fortifications for a thousand years and were only surpassed with the invention of the star fort in 16th century Italy.

Byzantine Politics: +1 Spy While it may have garnered a exagerrated reputation with Western Europeans accusations that the later Romans were masters of intrigue and backstabbing were not entirely unfounded. Constantinople, no matter how powerful or weak will always be well informed.

Territorial Recovery: 10% Cheaper Cores on all Provinces, 25% cheaper cores on Orthodox Provinces . As the last Remnants of the Roman Empire, Byzantium in one form or another once ruled much greater amounts of territory than it does in 1444. As such, people will be more willing to accept a revived Byzanto-Roman Lordship.

Patriarchy of Constantinople: +1 Missionary As the true center of Orthodox Christianity, Constantinople had a religious authority beyond all other Orthodox States. After its fall to the Ottoman Turks it would largely fragment along the lines of its Autocephalous Patriarchies.

Heirs of Rome: +1.0 Prestige per year: The Imperial title and, whether publicly adknowledeged or not, direct lineage to the Roman Empire often afforded Byzantium a level of prestige far beyond its actual military capabilities.

City of the Worlds Desire: +2 Base Tax and +1% Population Growth In Constantinople To Simply Quote Napoleon Bonaparte: If All Europe was one state, then Constantinople would undoubtably be its Capital

Legacy of Rome: 10% Cheaper technology Costs Although it lacked the resources near the end of its lifetime to make use of the knwoledge, Byzantine Scholars had (Along with Islamic Scholars) preserved what was left of the science of the classical era. It has even been surmised that the exodus of Byzantine intellectuals to Italy during the 15th century kickstarted the Rennaisance.

 

[bleakie]

THE GUESSING GAME


What National Ideas will Byzantium get, and what national ideas does it deserve?

I make 2 guesses:
1) Palaiologian Renaissance: -10% tech cost
2) Byzantine intrigue: +10% efficiency on covert missions

 

[Grubnessul]

I make 2 guesses:
1) Palaiologian Renaissance: -10% tech cost
2) Byzantine intrigue: +10% efficiency on covert missions

3) The Theodosian Walls: +50% defensiveness
4) Re-establish the Theme system: +25% manpower

 

[Alerias]

3) The Theodosian Walls: +50% defensiveness
4) Re-establish the Theme system: +25% manpower

These are the most conservative guesses we can make, there's little to no doubt they're in.

The Theme MP boost is from Eu3, and so far, 100% of countries who had unique decisions and got a DD saw their old unique decision made a part of the country's NIs. So the Theme system MP boost is practically a sure thing.

A defensiveness boost is extremely likely. EU always pictured BYZ as a defense-focused nation, which makes sense given its longevity and how slowly it crumbled when all hope was lost. And the Theodosian walls were a pretty defining feature, even making it a unique building in CK2 that no other province can ever match.

If I had to hazard a guess at a third 'most likely', I really dont see how Byzantium could not have an NI that gives it a prestige boost.

 

[Grubnessul]

then 5) The Legacy of Rome: +10% prestige?

 

[Beylerbeyi]

Patriarchy of Constantinople: +1 Missionary As the true center of Orthodox Christianity, Constantinople had a religious authority beyond all other Orthodox States. After its fall to the Ottoman Turks it would largely fragment along the lines of its Autocephalous Patriarchies.

Your description is the exact opposite of what happened in history. In reality Bulgaria and Serbia had their own Medieval Orthodox Churches. Under Ottoman rule those were eliminated and made subservient to the Ecumenical Patriarchate. It would also happen under resurgent ERE of course.

Legacy of Rome: 10% Cheaper technology Costs Although it lacked the resources near the end of its lifetime to make use of the knwoledge, Byzantine Scholars had (Along with Islamic Scholars) preserved what was left of the science of the classical era. It has even been surmised that the exodus of Byzantine intellectuals to Italy during the 15th century kickstarted the Rennaisance.

I find the idea of ERE getting a tech bonus rather ridiculous. They were an arch-conservative relic. Any kind of restoration state, especially those with a strong religious ideology would be reactionary. New and dynamic states should get such bonuses. Even if I were playing the ERE I wouldn't want to have this. On the other hand, ERE restoration is already a fantasy so why not go the whole way?

 

[KonradRichtmark]

Those who say that that OE is a continuation of the ERE (if not a true heir, then in geopolitical terms) are the historians. Practically all good historians- not just the Turks, say that because it is the obvious truth. The inability of the Breivik types and the Balkan nationalists to accept it is due to the lies of their own governments and, I don't know how to put this tenderly, a butthurt of epic proportions.

In what way was the Ottoman Empire a continuation of the Byzantine? Did it take over its imperial institutions for its own ends?