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Doukan

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I think he referred to conquering Byzantium, then claiming the ERE for yourself (including emperor title..)
the despotate of Epirus and the "empire" of Trebizond both claimed the emperor-ship, a revival decision for 18th century Greece conquering Asia minor would be nice.
some Greeks still saw themselves as "Romans" until the war of independence after all...
 

Alerias

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Oh, in that case, its already in.

BYZ is a union tag for Greeks. If it gets destroyed, any Greek power that achieves control over a majority of Greek provinces can reform BYZ as per Eu3.
 

Alerias

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Even Greece? :wub:
country_decisions = {

restore_byzantine_empire = {
potential = {
NOT = { exists = BYZ }
NOT = { tag = HRE }
primary_culture = greek
religion = orthodox
}
allow =
{
owns = 151 # Thrace
owns = 149 # Edirne
owns = 147 # Salonica
owns = 148 # Macedonia
owns = 146 # Athens
owns = 145 # Morea
owns = 1773 # Achea
owns = 316 # Bithynia
owns = 317 # Bursa
owns = 318 # Smyrna
owns = 1853 # Kozani
war = no
}
effect = {
BYZ = {
add_core = 151 # Thrace
add_core = 149 # Edirne
add_core = 147 # Salonica
add_core = 148 # Macedonia
add_core = 146 # Athens
add_core = 145 # Morea
add_core = 1773 # Achea
add_core = 316 # Bithynia
add_core = 317 # Bursa
add_core = 318 # Smyrna
add_core = 163 # Crete
add_core = 164 # Naxos
add_core = 320 # Rhodes
add_core = 321 # Cyprus
add_core = 322 # Anatolia
add_core = 323 # Konya
add_core = 319 # Antalya
add_core = 324 # Karaman
add_core = 325 # Kastamon
add_core = 326 # Angora
add_core = 327 # Adana
add_core = 332 # Mus
add_core = 328 # Sinope
add_core = 330 # Trebizon
add_core = 285 # Kaffa
add_core = 142 # Corfu
add_core = 143 # Albania
add_core = 144 # Janina
add_core = 1765 # Nis
add_core = 150 # Bulgaria
add_core = 1764 # Burgas
add_core = 159 # Silistria
add_core = 1846 # Yazgod
add_core = 1848 # Hamid
add_core = 1853 # Kozani
}
random_owned = {
limit = { culture = greek }
base_tax = 1
}
random_owned = {
limit = { culture = greek }
base_tax = 1
}
centralization_decentralization = -2
prestige = 0.1
change_tag = BYZ
BYZ = {
capital = 151 # Constantinople
}
}
ai_will_do = {
factor = 1
}
}

}

Sure, if it didnt change, any Greek Orthodox power that owns the required provinces can do it. I assume they didnt change this stuff, no reason to.
 

Patter Song

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Why does Byzantium own the Despotate of the Morea in the 1444 start? Wouldn't it make more sense to have the Morea start off as an allied, same dynasty different country? It was pretty much self-governing.
 

Projekt 919

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It was no more or less self-governing than any other non-contiguous part of any country during this period. The Morea was traditionally the domain of the Heir to the throne where he could "learn the Ropes" of governing. Wales used to be the same way back when British monarchs actually did something.
 

Alerias

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Why does Byzantium own the Despotate of the Morea in the 1444 start? Wouldn't it make more sense to have the Morea start off as an allied, same dynasty different country? It was pretty much self-governing.

What Projekt 919 said. Constantine Palaeologus, the HTTT, was strongly in control there, and certainly no desire to be split from his future Empire, or what was left of it. Ruling from Mistra, he helped fortify the Morean coastlines by building the Hexamilion and then launched an invasion of Latin Athens, reducing it to a vassal of Byzantium. He was doing these things because he wanted to strengthen the remains of the Empire. It's precisely these efforts that pissed the Ottomans off enough to launch a retaliatory campaign in 46 to contain Byzantium from regaining too much of Greece. Constantine wasn't doing any of that for the glory of Morea, but in the name of the Empire.

So, in Nov 44, not only should Morea be Byzantine, but Athens should be a vassal.
 

Beylerbeyi

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Good post, Jomini.

2. Having a professional army requires a much more capable leader than a decentralized levy system. In this era professional armies without family loyalties and land ties tend to make contests for the throne. If you have a weak Sultan (due to say the plague killing the competent ones or the sole surviving brother of the purge going insane and inheriting), it will be exceedingly hard to keep the army from draining the efficiency of the state as it enriches itself. Once the army has a successful rebellion, it will actively tend to keep down powerful sultans and become focused on securing its own privileges. This may give rise to a new powerful royal family - but standing armies like the New Model Army, Janissaries, etc. were avoided because they had real risks and it takes a very strong ruler in this era to keep the professional army serving him and not him serving it.

Janissaries were not strong enough to dictate things in the 15th century. There were 5000 to 10000 Janissaries in total. There was a similar amount of Imperial Cavalry, who were their rivals. As well as other provincial, timariot armies and auxiliaries. Janissaries were corrupted as you wrote but it happened much, much later.

3. The sheer size of Constantinople requires a much larger encampment than say Belgrade (at least 2x as many soldiers for the Turks). In this era disease rates tend to scale with the square of the troop count or worse. There is a reason that the Turks stormed the walls rather than try to wait out for a year or two and take the city when the food ran out. While the Ottomans had better cannons, their logistics (as they were still firing rocks), couldn't supply enough shot to prevent the defenders from repairing virtually all the cannon damage. Further the Ottomans tried to mine their way in, which almost invariably meant not taking the city intact.

Actually the Ottomans entered the city from the walls weakened/brought down by cannon fire. So they obviously could not be repaired as fast as the cannons damaged them. Also Ottoman expertise in siege and naval warfare kept improving. A siege after 1453 would have been even more formidable. Galata would have surrendered already. There would have been no Golden Horn chain. Mining would have brought down a section of the walls, and not have damaged important buildings. To defend the city modern star-fort fortifications were needed at the very least, but it was beyond the capabilities of the Romans to build them at that point. They lacked everything.


4. The Imperial army, however is a risky thing. Not too many generations from these struggles it sapped the Ottoman state. If it turns fratricidal in a succession crisis, the Ottomans may well lose substantial territory to minor Balkan states.

Succession was already more often than not fratricidal yet the Ottomans lost no territory to Balkan minors permanently.

Post-Varna Hunyadi was leading another anti-Ottoman excursion and came terribly close to winning Kosovo in 1448, quite possibly he would have won had Brankovic had died sooner and pro-Hungarian Serbian state sided with Hunyadi. In the time frame of Varna to say 1500, a lot of the Ottoman victories were at least heavily helped by the Serbian leadership helping them with intelligence and dilatory actions.

Hunyadi couldn't win in Varna with a larger army, he couldn't in Kosovo either. Who says he was so close? Christian sources always say so, I recommend some scepticism. Let's for the sake of argument say that he was close to winning, so what? He could have as easily been killed in Varna. If we are going down that route, Ottomans could have won in Ankara, and he could be fighting in Mohacs instead of Kosovo in 1448. As to the Serbs, they prove my point: Ottomans used their vassals effectively. Also, I'd be sceptical calling Gospodar Brankovic's holdings the "Serbian state". Hardly decisive.

7. The traditional practice however has the downside that there are not terribly many spare heirs kicking around early in a Sultans reign. Take Mehmed II, his oldest son was born in 1447. Had his father died in a failed siege in 1453, he would have been six. Even when you keep a brother alive, resting all your hopes on one Sultan in an age of high disease, frequent battles, and of course the chance that your wife/son/army may want to kill you ... well this is a major, major source instability and only ensures competency if you don't have unexpected deaths. Of course, with the harem intrigues this may also did result in instability with mothers trying to purge supporters of other factions.

Good points but Mehmed II knew about them and organised things to ease the matters. He separated the harem from the palace, he allowed fratricide, he disallowed marriages for the Sultan. They would place the favourite heir closest to the capital (they were sent to different cities to learn how to rule) so he could reach it first when the Sultan died. Even with the risks, Ottoman dynasty never died because the system worked and the institutions were strong.

8. In 1444, Serbia and Wallachia are both around and able to rule reasonably well in the Balkans, further there were plenty of minor nobles in the Balkans who could lead pocket kingdoms if the Ottomans went down hard. You are right that these peoples would rebel against Western Christian rule, but that would not necessarily kept them supplying the Ottomans with gold and manpower.

I am not so sure about "Serbia" in 1444, see above. Wallachia, well, I doubt it. I think they were both too weak and lacked the potential to pull it off.

9. That is highly doubtful. Back then, Byzantium would not have been outnumbered 10:1 and the Ottoman navy is not going force dispersion down along the Golden Horn walls.

Navies can be built. It would be harder than in 1453, of course. But hardly impossible. Crusaders did it.

The Ottoman system contained flaws that didn't break out until you had weak Sultans and prolonged succession crises. The Ottomans were lucky to get very good Sultans at a critical time. This isn't to say that the Ottomans were particularly lucky - pretty much every surviving state was lucky - the unlucky ones just didn't survive (Burgundy, Parliamentary England, Poland, the Timurids, etc. all had some of the same weaknesses, but didn't luck out with strong rulers to mitigate them), but if they were particularly unlucky they may well have been displaced.

Actually Ottomans had the worst succession crises in their history in this period (after Timur, and after Mehmed II wasn't pretty either). They survived it pretty well. They had good Sultans, but it was not luck, but was by design. Indeed when they moved the harem to the palace and started keeping the heirs in the palace instead of sending them to rule the provinces, they started getting terrible Sultans. Similarly the Imperial Infantry became a problem only when they vastly increased in number, and that was because of the changes in warfare and army composition. It had nothing to do with luck. They were doing things right. This doesn't mean they were a wonder state or the Christians were stupid. Neither it means that just because Osmanoglu did it, say, Dulkadiroglu could do it too.

E.g. in 1488 Skanderbeg and Hunyadi get lucky with Brackovic dying and Serbia joining the anti-Ottoman crusade allowing all three to confront the Ottomans in Kosovo. As close as Kosovo was in 1488 (with only Hungary in the battled). This might well have resulted in Ottoman defeat (as happened later at Belgrade) and potentially even killing both Murad II and Mehmed II. Bayezid II is less than a year old at that point. So yeah Hungary gets lucky, Ottomans get unlucky and the Ottomans lose out big time - the ERE likely survives to 1470. This is not unreasonable.

This scenario is extremely unlikely. Another Murad dying in another Kosovo, with Mehmed instead of Yakub this time. In a war they won in real history. I don't think Skandarbeg or Brankovic would have mattered... That would never have happened. But for the sake of argument, let's say it did happen. If the Ottomans got extremely unlucky, yes, ERE could have survived a decade or two. But it wouldn't have survived into the 16th century. Let alone the 17th. Even if another dynasty replaced the Ottomans.
 
Last edited:

Jomini

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Janissaries were not strong enough to dictate things in the 15th century. There were 5000 to 10000 Janissaries in total. There was a similar amount of Imperial Cavalry, who were their rivals. As well as other provincial, timariot armies and auxiliaries. Janissaries were corrupted as you wrote but it happened much, much later.

Yes I understand these things, however 10k is more than enough to stage coups and launch civil wars. It isn't enough to provide a decisive victory, but you really, really want a strong Sultan who can keep them from making a unified play for the throne (hence the Imperial favor system). It really is riding a tiger in this era to have a professional army - have too few men and they will lose in battle, have too many and they will be able to defeat all comers, have to many rival military factions and they may fall on each other. It takes far more diplomatic skill to maintain a system built on the rule of the strongest than one based on sanctioned claims to heredity fealty.

Actually the Ottomans entered the city from the walls weakened/brought down by cannon fire. So they obviously could not be repaired as fast as the cannons damaged them. Also Ottoman expertise in siege and naval warfare kept improving. A siege after 1453 would have been even more formidable. Galata would have surrendered already. There would have been no Golden Horn chain. Mining would have brought down a section of the walls, and not have damaged important buildings. To defend the city modern star-fort fortifications were needed at the very least, but it was beyond the capabilities of the Romans to build them at that point. They lacked everything.
Umm no. Ottoman troops did push through some sections of "re-built" rubble, those assaults were repulsed. The Janissaries managed to force the Kerkoporta and raise a Turkish flag. The success of the siege owed far more to discipline and skill of the Janissaries than to any cannon.

In any event, buildings are far less important than people when taking a city. Tunneling the walls means you are going to flatten most of the housing near the walls and will likely start fires in the residences near your tunnels when you fire them. In any event, yes proper artillery will eventually bring down the walls ... but the rates of fire at Constantinople 1453 are far below the rates the Ottomans needed to take other fortresses. As always, encamping that many men in small area is a race between disease and breaching the city.

Succession was already more often than not fratricidal yet the Ottomans lost no territory to Balkan minors permanently.
Yes, but they did lose territory until they managed to restore the functioning of the state. What I'm saying is that Ottoman institutions were fragile enough that a prolonged state of disarray could have occurred and caused such loss of territory and power that the state would never recover. It isn't like that was uncommon in the Islamic world - states would implode and no clear successor state would arise for a period of decades.
 
Last edited:

Jomini

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sorry, misclicked on the above post and need to continue here.

Hunyadi couldn't win in Varna with a larger army, he couldn't in Kosovo either. Who says he was so close? Christian sources always say so, I recommend some scepticism. Let's for the sake of argument say that he was close to winning, so what? He could have as easily been killed in Varna. If we are going down that route, Ottomans could have won in Ankara, and he could be fighting in Mohacs instead of Kosovo in 1448. As to the Serbs, they prove my point: Ottomans used their vassals effectively. Also, I'd be sceptical calling Gospodar Brankovic's holdings the "Serbian state". Hardly decisive.
Well, Aşıkpaşazade records the Hungarians as being huge, making many martyrs, and not routing until the Polish and Skeltzer princes fall and still needing two days of battle to win. Babinger talks similarly, but of course you know the difficulties there. This is all quite in keeping with Christian sources that assert that Hunyadi made it to the Ottoman baggage train only to be repulsed by reformed Janissaries and Christian morale falling when the nobles went down reformed Janissaries. Pretty much any two day battle in this time period is a close thing - it is too easy for a Sultan or King to take a stray arrow or cannon shot and completely tank morale (God is not on our side). An unlucky loss of the Sultan likely would have resulted in the Janissaries not reforming after being broken by the cavalry charge. In any event, the Turkish sources I've seen assert that Hunyadi had more troops at Kosovo than Varna, not to mention that you know at Varna, most sources say that the Polish charge was literally stopped at the tent of the Sultan.


Good points but Mehmed II knew about them and organised things to ease the matters. He separated the harem from the palace, he allowed fratricide, he disallowed marriages for the Sultan. They would place the favourite heir closest to the capital (they were sent to different cities to learn how to rule) so he could reach it first when the Sultan died. Even with the risks, Ottoman dynasty never died because the system worked and the institutions were strong.
Nonsense. In a period of high disease the house of Osman had precisely 0 rulers die of disease or battle with no heir. This was defying the odds - the French, English, Burgundians, Marinids, and dozens of other states all had significant power vacuums form in this time frame when lack of heirs became a problem ... and they didn't kill off all the spares. Yes, I know Turkish hygiene was superior to Western Europeans ... but the fact of the matter is statistically speaking there should have been a major crisis at least once in the 1400-1500 timeframe due to actuarial death of the Sultan with a minor heir. Now somebody has to luck out and beat actuarial odds to counterbalance the poor guys who do worse, but the Ottomans were never pressed with a major power vacuum due to untimely death of the sole survivor.

Navies can be built. It would be harder than in 1453, of course. But hardly impossible. Crusaders did it.
Sortof, navies can be built ... if you can find the money, the shipwrights, and the enemy (which was, you know all the naval states from Italy east) doesn't burn them while under construction. But even granting ships enough that early, where in heck are you going to find enough seasoned seamen to field them? Naval tradition takes generations to build and you simply need time to get enough trained hands to field a 1453 capable navy.

Actually Ottomans had the worst succession crises in their history in this period (after Timur, and after Mehmed II wasn't pretty either). They survived it pretty well. They had good Sultans, but it was not luck, but was by design. Indeed when they moved the harem to the palace and started keeping the heirs in the palace instead of sending them to rule the provinces, they started getting terrible Sultans. Similarly the Imperial Infantry became a problem only when they vastly increased in number, and that was because of the changes in warfare and army composition. It had nothing to do with luck. They were doing things right. This doesn't mean they were a wonder state or the Christians were stupid. Neither it means that just because Osmanoglu did it, say, Dulkadiroglu could do it too.
Look, we are talking about an era in which rulers ate from lead dinnerware (including Ottomans), all the heirs are fighting throughout their lives and there is zero assurance that the final battle between the last two heirs doesn't kill one and leave the other deathly wounded going into septic shock from a stray arrow. With the Ghazi ideal, a new Sultan often went straight off to further battles - risking a breakout of plague or more battle wounds. This isn't about genetics or training, it is about the complete absence of modern medicine and the sheer random chance that the Sultan dies of something minor (as you know happened all the time to everyone in that time period). I get that the Ottomans had a major succession crisis - that would be why Constantinople survived and why a similar crisis would likely buy 20 more years.

Actually Ottomans had the worst succession crises in their history in this period (after Timur, and after Mehmed II wasn't pretty either). They survived it pretty well. They had good Sultans, but it was not luck, but was by design. Indeed when they moved the harem to the palace and started keeping the heirs in the palace instead of sending them to rule the provinces, they started getting terrible Sultans. Similarly the Imperial Infantry became a problem only when they vastly increased in number, and that was because of the changes in warfare and army composition. It had nothing to do with luck. They were doing things right. This doesn't mean they were a wonder state or the Christians were stupid. Neither it means that just because Osmanoglu did it, say, Dulkadiroglu could do it too.
Well, when I did joint training with Turkish officers they said Kosovo 1448 was the last chance for Christian control of Istanbul to survive. Their scenario was the House of Osman being incapacitated through death on the battlefield.

In any event, while it is possible for another Islamic dynasty to step in an Ottoman shaped vacuum, it is also possible for there be a splintering of the state with many contenders taking their piece of the pie. The Dulkarids, the Karamanids, the Jandarids, and others may all split the state.

Frankly, I don't see how an intact Ottoman state and the ERE can coexist outside of the Ottomans deciding they want that (e.g. ERE vassals, no fracas about Athens). Eventually, yeah I think the ERE will not be able to maintain Ottoman favor and will fall if the Ottomans aren't beset with major problems. That being said, I also think the Ottoman state - with few family ties, diverse religion, and professional army is ripe for implosion if they get hit by bad luck (3 Sultans in a row catch plague and die young, Hungary invades, and the Karamanids stab the Ottomans in the back). If the Ottomans go down in flames, then I see no reason for the ERE to die until another state (e.g. Serbia, Hungary, Karamanids, etc.) rises back to Ottoman level. This should be quite rare, but, I think also should be possible given the inherent weaknesses of a state that intentionally prunes the ruling dynasty, has a professional army, and has to deal with major religious issues.
 

Beylerbeyi

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Jomini,

I generally agree with your points about a professional army. It would be great to have this simulated in EU IV instead of the lame "units".

The Ottoman system was not pure rule of the strongest, though. It was the strongest of the ruling dynasty. In the Central Asian tradition only the descendants of Genghis Khan or Oguz Khan can be a Khan. However, the Janissaries were closer to 5000 before 1450 (10k refers to Mehmed II era), and could be kept under control relatively easily. This doesn't mean that they did not cause any problems. Bayezid (at his succession), Mehmed I and Bayezid II all gave them concessions. Indeed Bayezid II's reign was peaceful partially because the Janissaries (and other military classes) didn't want another ruthless campaigner.

About the siege of Constantinople, contemporary records agree that the cannon fire brought down the walls. Cannon fire by itself was not enough, Jannisaries alone were not enough either, but both were important. About mining and tunneling, remember what you wrote before, Constantinople was huge. Mining the wall will collapse a section and any housing adjacent to it, but it would be nothing compared to the size of the city. That also means you don't have to concentrate your army in a small area. You can spread them out unless you are ready for an assault and reduce the chance of an epidemic. As to navies, "the enemy" was the ERE, not the Italians. And yes, Bayezid I could have built a navy allied with an Italian state or the Mamluks. Bayezid II did neither, he did it with Ragusan help.

About Varna and Kosovo battles, I don't have the Aşıkpaşazade text, but I have a modernised version of Neshri. He describes the Kosovo battle in more epic terms than Varna. No mention of the army sizes, except he writes that 80-90 thousand heathens were killed in Kosovo (and only 150 Muslims!). He calls it the greatest victory of Murad, but according to him Varna was more closely fought (he writes that Murad wanted to run away at some point). Frankly speaking I am not particularly interested in the details (e.g. where the Polish charge was stopped) and tactics of battles, I am more interested larger strategy, diplomacy, logistics etc. My point was (and still is) that it was as likely that Ottomans win in Ankara or in Belgrade, as they lose in Varna or Kosovo. Also, in all of Ottoman history only one Sultan died on the battlefield, even though the Sultans fought a thousand battles. That was not luck. Even if they lost in Kosovo (already a "what if"), it was extremely unlikely that both Murad and Mehmed would get killed. At that level of "what if" you can as well land Aztecs in Europe.

Nonsense. In a period of high disease the house of Osman had precisely 0 rulers die of disease or battle with no heir. This was defying the odds - the French, English, Burgundians, Marinids, and dozens of other states all had significant power vacuums form in this time frame when lack of heirs became a problem ... and they didn't kill off all the spares. Yes, I know Turkish hygiene was superior to Western Europeans ... but the fact of the matter is statistically speaking there should have been a major crisis at least once in the 1400-1500 timeframe due to actuarial death of the Sultan with a minor heir. Now somebody has to luck out and beat actuarial odds to counterbalance the poor guys who do worse, but the Ottomans were never pressed with a major power vacuum due to untimely death of the sole survivor.

Main disagreement is the one about Ottoman institutions, you think they were fragile, but history proves you wrong, as the Ottomans and their institutions survived all kinds of crises including numerous civil wars in the 15th century. I also don't know why you think the Ottomans never lost heirs to disease or battles or had a crisis. They did. But they survived it because they had a robust system.

Let me explain in detail. In the 15th century, a normal Christian ruler married a noble woman (no divorce) and produced a few male heirs. An Ottoman ruler married up to four women (plus divorce, plus concubines) and produced at least five male heirs. When a heir died in childhood due to primitive conditions back then it was a major problem, for the Ottomans, it was less of a problem. They also had better hygene as you wrote. Even genetics played a role after the 15th century because the Ottomans did not inbreed unlike other nobility. To the contrary, they reproduced with the healthiest and smartest concubines they could find. The results were pretty random, of course. For me the best argument against eugenics is the fact that inbred Charles V and his cousin produced Phillip the Prudent, while Suleiman and Hürrem produced Selim the Sot...

As to death from battles, unlike some other nobility most Ottoman rulers did not charge into battle unless they had to. Probably another aspect that comes from the Steppes. Only one died in battle (due to trickery by most accounts), and his son (who did things like charging into battle) got captured on another occasion. Compare that to the number of rulers killed and captured by the Ottomans in battles... Ottomans did not charge into the enemy Household Guard for glory, like the Polish King did in Varna just before he got beheaded.

Ottoman heirs received an excellent education after Murad I, and had experience as rulers as teenagers in selected provinces. They had wives and children as soon as possible, even before ascending to the throne. The favourite heir was helped by the establishment to ascend after the death of the Sultan. Once he reached the capital and took control of the Janissaries, the brothers had little power to do anything about it.

Let's prove the points with a case study. Mehmed II, the Conqueror was the THIRD son of Murad II. He also had three younger brothers. Murad's eldest son and heir died after falling off the horse or some "stupid reason" like that. The second one died in childhood due to disease. Murad II was so depressed he abdicated the throne (probably the only time in Ottoman history) and left the 12 year old Mehmed II on the throne. A child on the throne was one of the reasons behind the Varna Crusade. But the child was already a leader. He spoke many languages and had studied the classics. When the Crusade started, he famously wrote his father "If you are the Sultan come and lead your army, if I am the Sultan I hereby order you to come and lead my armies". Mehmed II fought in countless battles but didn't die or got captured by the enemy, but that was not because he was a coward. In the siege of Belgrade he fought personally to prevent a total rout of his army and got wounded in the head. Yet he died of illness (or got poisoned) at the beginning of a major campaign. When he died his favourite son lost the throne and there was a crisis but it did not stop the rise of the Ottomans, even though Bayezid II undid some of his work.
 

Grubnessul

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Rebuilding Byzantium is fun, but there was no chance it could have made it to the 1500s without the player's intervention and the hugely simplified world.. The City was pretty much in shambles and the population was a fraction of what it had been to a point that large parts of the area within the walls was converted to kitchen gardens/farmland. Trade was entirely ceded to the Genoan and Venetian merchants who paid virtually no tax. So, no revenue, no manpower and no willing allies in the West. Even with the latter, it would have taken a virtually complete destruction of the Ottomans (which the magnificent post above deals with [no pun intended]) and all Turkish power in Anatolia with no other power posing a threat to Constantinople itself for a few generations to rebuild it to it's former glory before it could reconquer the Empire. I cannot imagine 50 years of peace in Anatolia, not if someone had destroyed the Turkish power, someone would have moved in.
 

Alerias

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Its an AH game, though, and you used the magic words; rebuilding Byzantium is fun.

That's all there is to it. It's sufficiently difficult to pull off that the player who manages, really feels proud and gets the /impression/ he brought it back from the brink in a plausible manner, even if yes, Constantinople's high tax base and manpower were probably in worse shape historically than they are in game.

I'd have no problem to model that to an extent if we must. Reduce the City's initial tax base and manpower by two, and have an event that fires either if BYZ reclaims most if its core lands or if TUR annexes it, raising it by two. At this point we're just piling more dirt on Byzantium's early grave, but I'm willing to admit it'd be somewhat realistic.
 

unmerged(49637)

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Honestly a player should have zero problem making the Byzantines work (with a lot of work) in 1444.

Reasons.
1. Knowledge:
The player has way more knowledge than existing rulers. He can easily see who likes him, and who might come to his aid. He knows the ins and outs of how to increase taxes, and what not to spend on, he has the information to form better trade routes, and the knowledge to save up and buy Mercs at the right time. A better knowledge of "the system" for warfare... The list goes on.

2. The willingness to "reroll" ones own Emperor. Have a bad leader? Send him on a solo charge against the enemy. A real ruler would not quickly off himself to be replaced with a better candidate. Couple this with the ability to min/max on hard decisions. A player might not think twice about becoming a vassel of Spain if that is what it took. A real king wouldnt consider it as easily.

3. The ability to reload the game. It is groundhog day, the player can keep trying until he gets it right. You can tap different targets and see what works. Maybe formenting Revolt in one province did not work. Maybe it works better in a different one. Maybe you need to reload 5 times until your Emperor is properly killed storming the walls of a nearby target, Maybe you supported the wrong rebel group of Ottomans (the one that won quickly)

If a real leader had all of these options he would win eventually (Groundhog Day).

Of course this is almost A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court. (Of course in that case, they would start producing Brass Cannons and Refined Gunpowder by 1448, not to mention Germ Warfare, Kentucky Long Rifles, Barbed Wire and other nasties)
 

Alerias

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Scumsavers can WC with Ryuku np ;) Though its been done legitly as well.

Knowledge and tactics are great, but if someone didnt manage it without reloads, he's yet to earn the bragging rights, IMHO.
 

unmerged(49637)

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Scumsavers can WC with Ryuku np ;) Though its been done legitly as well.

Knowledge and tactics are great, but if someone didnt manage it without reloads, he's yet to earn the bragging rights, IMHO.

As gameplay I agree, but the point that it should be impossible should only apply to the AI. With the tools the player has at his disposal it will not be that hard, even if the AI fails with in 10 years in 10,000/10,000 games.
 

Alerias

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As gameplay I agree, but the point that it should be impossible should only apply to the AI. With the tools the player has at his disposal it will not be that hard, even if the AI fails with in 10 years in 10,000/10,000 games.

This I agree with absolutely. In fact, I think it might be just a tad easier to do it than in 5.2 11/1444 for a few reasons, including the fact this game is built to inherently favor small countries over large ones to the largest extent possible. And if you do try 5.2 1444, its not that hard; the Ottomans have 2 more provinces and no Timurids on their asses, but they dont have Bosnia nor Serbia as vassals. In Eu4, hopefully theyll have corrected the BYZ-Athens relationship by making ATH a vassal of BYZ, which would help a bit too. So BYZ is in a strong position to gain SER, BOS and WAL as allies in addition to ATH early on (maybe even day one). That's not enough to crush the Ottomans in open field but its better than 1399.
 

Beylerbeyi

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I don't think anybody here wants to make it impossible for a human player to resurrect the glorious Roman Empire and paint the map in purple, as long as it is adequately challenging. I don't even see anything wrong with reloading saves or cheating to do it. It's a game, let people play it as they like.

What people object to is the ERE surviving way too often in games. Because it should not happen. And it should not be a revolter. It should be formable if the core lands are under control. "Greece" should not be a revolter before 1750s either.
 

Vortiman

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I'll reiterate what I said in the other thread:

The notion that the Ottomans are descendant of the Roman Empire is nothing beyond quasi-racist Turkish nationalism, especially considering that very nation exterminated the populace within its borders of the ethnicity that previously ruled the Roman Empire (I am aware that the Young Turks were an anomaly, however). The Ottoman Sultanate made the reason for its very existence the destruction of Byzantium. Simply eliminating the occupants of a country does not grant you legitimacy in owning its previous lands.
 

Alerias

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I'll reiterate what I said in the other thread:

The notion that the Ottomans are descendant of the Roman Empire is nothing beyond quasi-racist Turkish nationalism, especially considering that very nation exterminated the populace within its borders of the ethnicity that previously ruled the Roman Empire (I am aware that the Young Turks were an anomaly, however). The Ottoman Sultanate made the reason for its very existence the destruction of Byzantium. Simply eliminating the occupants of a country does not grant you legitimacy in owning its previous lands.

I agree. That's why I said Johan was trolling, there's no way he could sincerely believe something so heinous. It's just a jab to Byzantium's overly vocal community. And I can't fault humor.

Personally, I barely even read the posts of anyone from Turkey when it comes to anything even vaguely related to Byzantium. I like Turkey in real life, but they're so hopelessly biased about this part of history that it gets offensive real fast.

You don't inherit the Roman Empire through conquest. I maintain that the Russian claim is orders of magnitudes stronger, and I want to focus on the plural form I'm using here.