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StephenT

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What should the Eastern Roman Empire be called then? I'm not just talking EU timeframe but any time frame following the fall of the West. Byzantine was invented long after the fall of Constantinople to make a distinction between the ancient empire and the medieval one. No contemporary sources refered to the Empire in Constantinople as Byzantine, but as either Greek (by the westerners) or Roman (by them themelves). If Roman is for some reason not allowed, then what should it be?
Nobody's saying "Calling them Roman is not allowed"; I just think that treating them as the heir to the Roman empire - and giving them the cores to suit that status - is kind of silly.

Personally I'd say they stopped being the Eastern Roman Empire around 610-650, when Heraclius and his heirs lost control of most of the former Roman provinces and the Patriarchates of Alexandria, Jerusalem and Antioch, made Greek instead of Latin the official language, changed his title to βασιλεύς instead of imperator, replaced the old Roman-style salaried professional army with feudal levies, abolished most of the old Roman centralised bureaucracy, and virtually stopped minting coins except in Constantinople itself. It wasn't the same state after so radical a change even if they kept the name.

If you want to be politically correct, call it Romania (Ῥωμανία). Otherwise, 'Byzantine Empire' is fine. The word 'Byzantium' was used to describe the empire from the 1500s on, which was only a century after it fell.

Not necessarily. I don't know about this specific event, but from what I know of the Byzantines in general they were a lot like China in that they considered everyone around them to be 'barbarians only good for giving tribute'. So I'd guess that Byzantine-Turkish alliance the Byzantines considered the Turks to be their vassal who they were merely using to put Philadelphia under their control and that the act of the Byzantines helping the Turks was proof to them that the Turks were only allowed to control anything at the Byzantine's leisure.
In 1200, you might be right. In 1390, not even the Byzantines could be in such denial as not to know who was whose vassal. Look at what happened when the same Emperor, John V, ordered Constantinople's walls to be repaired and strengthened. Sultan Bayezid didn't like that, and in 1391 ordered him to reverse the repairs and even demolish the main gate into the city. John obeyed, like a good vassal.
 

Ichabod

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The current head of state of Spain calls himself King of the Two Sicilies...

Do you think anyone takes those titles seriously? But they're still preserved, because it's traditional.

Your claim was "Honestly, by the 14th century I don't think the Byzantines really saw themselves as that at all - it's only 21st century Paradox players who have a romantic idea of them as the successors of Rome." That's what I was asking for evidence for, and from what you gave-> "I [still] don't see any reason at all to think that they didn't see themselves as the continuation of Rome."


By the later years the Byzantine emperors saw themselves more as inheriting the role of the Roman Emperor as God's vicar and regent on Earth, as opposed to claiming the mundane sovereignty over what had been the Roman empire in the old days.

Wait, so did they see themselves as heirs to Rome or not??? Now I'm confused as to what your arguing. The Roman Emperor was never tied down to a geographical "empire" as we would think it today. The empire could move to the moon for all legitimacy was concerned - what was important was the role of God's ruler on earth. (Also, as far as I'm aware, by the end of the classical period the emperor wasn't the vicar of God in the sense that "vicar" is used today.


As for the Russians, the "Third Rome" business was more like a call to build a new Jerusalem than a serious legal claim to sovereignty based on translatio imperii. This is the source of the claim, the monk Filofei's declaration that Moscow was the Third Rome written in 1510 as a letter to Grand Duke Vasili III:

I don't quite understand this point. I don't know what a "legal claim" really means in this context and I'm not sure what "sovereignty" you're talking about. Of course the idea of the Third Rome was a moral issue of building the ideal Christian state, but it also had important secular foundations and consequences. That's, of course, why the Byzantine princess who married duke of Moscow (Theodora? I'm blanking on names and dates right now), that's why she was so important. In the Russian eyes it gave them claim to be the new defender of the faith and a nobility equal to the Emperors. Though, as you say, I don't know that even the Russians expected many of their Latin neighbors to send many "Congratulations on Assuming the Mantle of the Old Roman Empire!" greeting cards.
Too bad... there's always so many of those cards at the Hallmark store - I'd like to see them get some love sometime.
 

Ichabod

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Is Taiwan "in all respects" the Republic of China?
This is actually a perfect support of my case - I'm not exactly sure why you're the one who brought it up lol
Taiwan, although a rump state, continues to maintain it is the legitimate heir to China. Practical realities don't necessarily always mesh with self-identity
 

StephenT

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Wait, so did they see themselves as heirs to Rome or not??? Now I'm confused as to what your arguing. The Roman Emperor was never tied down to a geographical "empire" as we would think it today.
And that's my point: the Roman Empire in its original form certainly was tied down to a geographical empire in the modern sense: it was the city of Rome and the lands it ruled. That definition started to get strained after Diocletian split the empire and then Constantine founded 'New Rome' in the East, but I'd say it was still there as late as Justinian's day, and was the motivation for his conquests.

But afterwards? The Byzantines didn't control more than a fraction of the old territorial Roman empire and - as my quote shows - they'd given up any hope of ever getting it back. So instead they made up a whole fancy new ideology about universal empire with the emperor as more of a religious than secular figure. (Actually, he's a lot like the Japanese emperor of this same period in that respect; and equally powerless.)


]I don't quite understand this point. I don't know what a "legal claim" really means in this context and I'm not sure what "sovereignty" you're talking about. Of course the idea of the Third Rome was a moral issue of building the ideal Christian state, but it also had important secular foundations and consequences.
I'm saying that the "secular foundations and consequences" were pretty meaningless. Filofei saying that Moscow was the Third Rome was very symbolic and moving, but it had as much formal legal significance as Clem Attlee in 1945 saying that the Labour Government was making Britain into the New Jerusalem.
 

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Stephen, maybe I'm reading a little too much into what your saying, and I hope this isn't offensive, but it seems to me that your conflating your idea of what the "authentic" Roman Empire should be with the universal (viz Platonic) Idea of what the authentic Roman Empire should be.
The fact of the matter is that there is no "Authentic Roman Empire". There is no universal Right Answer to who was the last Emperor. It's all a matter of ideology. It's fine for Constantine to have an ideology about the Roman Empire, it's fine for Justinian and Nicholas II to have an ideology. It's fine for you to have your own ideology. But in a historical discussion you can't project your ideology backwards.

Nothing you wrote here seems wrong to me - but the underlying impression I got was that you think that the Roman Empire of Augustus and Marcus Aurelius was more authentic than the Roman Empire of Constantine XI. That's fine ideology, but bad history.

Definitions change. If the original Empire was tied to Rome and later the idea of Empire evolved, we can say that the form has changed. We can say that the people of country X and the leaders of country Y didn't view them as legitimate emperors anymore. But we can't say that they weren't the authentic Empire. Especially if they claimed to be the Empire as a part of their identity.
 

Byzan

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We should have a better flag for the Byzantines, even if they die they gotta look good dying :p (http://images.wikia.com/bzantineempire/images/5/53/360px-Flag_of_Palaeologus_Dynasty_svg.png this looks good~)

But likely there will be someway to change the clock and make to where Byzantium achieves victory - far stranger has happened. While it is after the Battle of Varna, the Turks forces may be weakened after the event and allowed for the Byzantines to build up some forces, allowing them to either spawn revolts to distract the Turks or to go more into capitulating into the Catholics.

BUT, I really hope there is more put on with the Byzantine capitulating to the Catholics - because that -was- the sole reason for the Schism. Byzantium and the Pope disagreed on various issues and really this was more of breaking down the schism. So, mayhaps, Byzantium gets its own little revolts or the sorts with the Catholic capitulation? Either fully converting Catholic and accepting the Pope's ruling or rejecting it and remaining Orthodox.

I'd be really interesting, I'd say, for then there'd be both a new Schism and a New Movement. The movement for the Restoration of the other Three Patriarchates (Now Catholic) and the Schism of should there be Four Popes? One Pope? Or Byzantium holding all four Patriarchates? It'd at least make the actual religious aspect more interesting and intrigue( when religion is the core of EUIII, and CKII. (Have a Pagan son? LOL, get ready for Civil War)

Plus the Catholization would be the re-introduction of Latin into Byzantium - which then becomes the New Latinized Roman Empire rather than the Greek-ized Eastern Roman Empire. Hell the only reason the HRE was permitted by the Pope was because A. they wanted a strong kingdom to endorse their interests and B. to really piss off the Byzantines. To say "The Papacy decides who is Roman and Who is Not. Get it?" So now with the Byzantines accepting of the Pope - would there be a need for the HRE? (In the Papacy's mindset since now they've got Byzantium, an actual link to the Roman Empire of the Olden days)

EDIT: I also don't particularly get the whole Byzantine-hate and love. Maybe it's the allure of 'Rome' and re-creating the Roman Empire. But we don't have any Western-Roman Empire lovers D: I mean, at some point, in EUIV Russia should be able to utterly squash the Ottomans. Really the Ottomans were like tiny little insects militarily. (And this was an Empire who was still stuck partway in the age of Feudalism. Kinda like living in the 21st century but you still have a Windows 98..) Only reason Russia got kicked in the ass after the Crimean War was due to the Western fears of having another competitor, one who had more landmass than any of them and likely could have the ability to easily takeover the Ottomans and reclaim Constantinpolis. (The Ottomans by the time of the 1700s and 1800s were just..there. They were dying and, ironically, in the same position the Byzantines are right now. Not literally, of course, but in the same situation. Surrounded by Empires and enemies profiting off their destruction. And I'm okay with that, I'm okay with a hard Byzantium as I'm okay in-game in the 1700s and 1800s of the Turks having to get stability hits, civil wars and either adopting the Young Turks model (even then player can't be guaranteed of holding all his or her possessions) or just facing so many civil wars that the game collapses. Why? Well it'd be better than WD and doing nothing. Make the game HARDER as time goes on, when new ideas afloat like Le Republique (reintroduced of course, already present in 1444 but popularized and needed in the 1700s. Vive la Revolution! Even goes (if more so ESPECIALLY) for the Eastern Roman Empire. )
 
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Barnacle Bill

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This is actually a perfect support of my case - I'm not exactly sure why you're the one who brought it up lol
Taiwan, although a rump state, continues to maintain it is the legitimate heir to China. Practical realities don't necessarily always mesh with self-identity

If the ROC government still sits on Taiwan selling computers to the US and telling anybody who will listen that they are the legitimate government of all China, yeh nobody is taking that seriously. If, through whatever improbable sequence of events, someday they again hold most of the mainland and the rump of the PRC government is off on Long March II, I think most countries in the world would then take them seriously.

That's what I meant. If the player manages to get BYZ back to its borders at the death of Basil II, why should they not then claim the rest of Italy? If the player manages to get BYZ back to its borders at the death of Justinian I, why should they not then claim France, Spain & Portugal?
 

Byzan

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No, the USA recognizes it due to Cold War politics which is AN ENTIRELY DIFFERENT STORY because of the Sino-Soviet Split and Mao's BS thought of opposing 'Soviet Social Imperialism' - even to go so far as to somewhat ally with the US and more so going against the USSR than the USA.

Also - It's not that the world recognizes them but it's that they themselves recognize that they are the true-holders of the regions in those locations. You just have to maintain the people's acceptance of you as their ruler - and one could do this in various different ways. But because of the lack of commies and social justice, likely it'd be just supporting civil wars and trying to get French, Spanish, Bulgarian, yada yada yada nobles to support your cause as well as the clergies supporting you. Then the people can be at least persuaded that they accept you as their ruler.

If there is no social relationship between the Caesar/Basileous and the people - then why should the people care? Answer: they shouldn't. If there is then the people believe that they need a Basileous, that well he's a foreigner..But he rules well and apparently God supports him. Whose to say otherwise?

And then the Social-relationship changes as scientific advances come about and you can't just use the old "God says so" or that people (who have no real relationship with them) that are the Basileous' supporters are in support of him. SO, you gotta revamp it. Aka Represenative democracy and give the people a false sense of that they're in the legitimacy of the state. Really clever thing.
 

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If the ROC government still sits on Taiwan selling computers to the US and telling anybody who will listen that they are the legitimate government of all China, yeh nobody is taking that seriously. If, through whatever improbable sequence of events, someday they again hold most of the mainland and the rump of the PRC government is off on Long March II, I think most countries in the world would then take them seriously.

That's what I meant. If the player manages to get BYZ back to its borders at the death of Basil II, why should they not then claim the rest of Italy? If the player manages to get BYZ back to its borders at the death of Justinian I, why should they not then claim France, Spain & Portugal?

Er-what do claims or cores mean here? Causus Belli? International recognition of the legitimacy of these wars? Provinces that are easy to rule? If Taiwan somehow won an insane war and held the territory yes, it would get recognized. They probably even would have a much easier time ruling over China than, say, the Japanese. The international community might view it as merely a civil war and not get upset with the balance of power shifting the sameway they would freak if Japan were to invade China and try and conquer it...

But if Byzantium somehow conquered all of Italy-the Kings of France and Spain would ally against them for encroaching on areas they had claims to (Byzantium, in game terms, would aquire a lot of BB by conquering Italy and possibly trigger BB wars if they weren't carefull.) I doubt Catholic Italians would seamlessly become loyal to the new Emperor (the native population would have high revolt risk). So why should the Byzantines get any claims or cores in the West?

The player is presumably free to manufacture a CB somehow on Italy, invade, take the BB hit and the revolt hits and, with a dynamic core system, eventually incorporate those holdings into his own empire after a long period of unrest. You could probably even eventually invade Europe and convert all of Europe to Orthodox. The game engine should realistically make that difficult, but possible. But I don't see why conquering all of Europe should be any easier for the Byzantium than other countries or why Byz should get a special incentive to do so.

I would like to take this moment to vent about what made me, personally, tired of Byzantium in EU3:the Pentarchy decision and the awesome missions Byzantium got.

The decision and missions helped flesh out a kind of wildly optimistic scenario where Byzantium resurges and inflicts crushing defeats on both Islam and Catholicism so that Orthodox is the major religion (and the very idea of a Papacy is destroyed, I guess? Somehow?)

Once you put that in, you have to answer the "if we are going to have the Pentarchy event, why not have event X" irritating questions. We now have an incredibly optimistic victory scenario for the Byz given special recognition in game, helped along by both by mission chains and eventually a powerful decision. But why isn't there an mission chain for the Ottomans to take Vienna and even Rome? Why isn't there mission chains for the Kingdom of Jerusalem or the Knights to keep crusading till take Mecca and Medina? Mission chains and decisions for France, Spain, Poland or Austria sketching out their most wildly ambitious and unrealistic goals?

I...actually would be okay with all those. As long as attention is lavished on all the major players equally. Otherwise, they should not get special bonuses, missions or events to achieve highly implausible things. A Spanish invasion of China and eradication of Protestantism should probably be done in game, using the engine manually rather than by special incentives. The same should be true of a Byzantium best case scenario.
 
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Byzan

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Avegin Empire actually never existed as a True Empire, it was just a time-phase of the highest state the Plantagenets ruled over France. Really the best thing for England in terms of that is to actually TAKE THE THRONE of France and do something that MEIOU did. The Anglo-French Union or just a revitalized France under the Plantagenet rule. (Kinda like how there was never a 'Byzantine Empire'. There was the Eastern Roman Empire and then there was Catholic Europe. But since EU IV will go on the basis of 'WEEEELP, we're going to both use modern terms as well as not" it just seems silly. Why not just give us the ERE as it's name? Then again these are the same people who said Jurchen are actually the Qing. The guys who were the Empire after the Ming, even though they were actually tribals at first. Yep...)

I mean ultimately with your comments on Vienna and Rome - The Turks didn't want to crush Catholicism. sure it was a side-factor but they wanted to create Rum. They wanted to make their OWN Roman Empire. (ha-ha. Roman Empire got lots of pretenders. AndtheTurksweretheworstofthem)

Plus the only thing that'd I would think of Habsburg chain event (assuming one maintains the Habsburg family) is that you get into the Spanish Succession Crisis. Or just a general crisis where a Habsburg King inherits a Throne and Europe goes ape-shiat over it.

Plus..Kingdom of Jerusalem and the Knights wouldn't want Mecca? Politically and Economically? Sure. But what is the point, what is the excuse? can't just go they're heathens then China has a means to take over the whole of Europe, Russia has a means to invade all of Eastern Europe, the Balkans can go to war with Hungary.

Sure the excuse may be to crush the muslim menace but that isn't the point of the Crusades. The Point of them is to A. Reclaim the Holy Land for Christiandome. B. Force the Muslim Caliphates and such to recognize the Sovereignty of this. And C. Maintain a power structure there and ultimately get the guard off of Byzantium.

It was never meant to destroy Islam, it was meant to set off Europe financially (gain new ports and dominate the Mediterranean), politically (every European state has a influence in this Kingdom of Jerusalem) and unite Europe from their wars on each other thus allowing markets to grow again. It was only until Colonialism really hit (and I mean really, as in feudalism was just abandoned and there wasn't this proto-capitalist stuff) that they decided to use the Civilize card and to fuel fundamentalism in order to take out various powers.

We don't get near that until the late 1400s early 1500s, and then 1600s onwards is both trying to survive the inner political, religious and social struggles in Europe (aka abandoning Feudalism and getting Capitalism) as well as set up huge monopolistic Empires.
 

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Once you put that in, you have to answer the "if we are going to have the Pentarchy event, why not have event X" irritating questions. We now have an incredibly optimistic victory scenario for the Byz given special recognition in game, made possible both by mission chains and eventually a powerful decision. But why isn't there an mission chain for the Ottomans to take Vienna and even Rome? Why isn't there mission chains for the Kingdom of Jerusalem or the Knights to keep crusading till take Mecca and Medina? Mission chains and decisions for France, Spain, Poland or Austria sketching out their most wildly ambitious and unrealistic goals?

Because the Byzantine "goals" had a historical precedent as their justification. Turks in Vienna, Knights in Mecca, these had no historical irredentism behind them. The examples you gave are irrelevant to the situation. If you had said "Knight in Jerusalem, Turks in Persia", your would have made a good case. As it is, it's non-sequitur.
Sorry.
 

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I mean ultimately with your comments on Vienna and Rome - The Turks didn't want to crush Catholicism. sure it was a side-factor but they wanted to create Rum. They wanted to make their OWN Roman Empire. (ha-ha. Roman Empire got lots of pretenders. AndtheTurksweretheworstofthem)


Plus..Kingdom of Jerusalem and the Knights wouldn't want Mecca? Politically and Economically? Sure. But what is the point, what is the excuse? can't just go they're heathens then China has a means to take over the whole of Europe, Russia has a means to invade all of Eastern Europe, the Balkans can go to war with Hungary.

Sure the excuse may be to crush the muslim menace but that isn't the point of the Crusades. The Point of them is to A. Reclaim the Holy Land for Christiandome. B. Force the Muslim Caliphates and such to recognize the Sovereignty of this. And C. Maintain a power structure there and ultimately get the guard off of Byzantium.

It was never meant to destroy Islam,

Just for the record-I don't disagree. The idea of the Turks taking Vienna and then somehow "ending Western civilization" is bizarre and ahistorical. As is the idea of the crusader states doing the reverse. But these are all at least as plausible as a Byzantium that retakes lands it lost to Islam 700 years ago, converts the population to Orthodox, and deposes the Pope. Which is to say...they aren't plausible at all. Or even representative of what the state's real goals were (did Byzantium ever have a plan to take back Alexandria and Rome?)

But people will argue its fun to do that with Byzantium. And they are right! But if we are going to start in on those kind of fun zany things we might as well be consistent about it.

Because the Byzantine "goals" had a historical precedent as their justification. Turks in Vienna, Knights in Mecca, these had no historical irredentism behind them. The examples you gave are irrelevant to the situation. If you had said "Knight in Jerusalem, Turks in Persia", your would have made a good case. As it is, it's non-sequitur.
Sorry.

Does the Pentarchy event chain have any justification? By 1400 the split and the rise of Islam is established.

Would you be satisfied with the aforementioned "Charlemange Empire being rebuilt" by France victory conditions?

EDIT: For the record, the Pentarchy decision fired if Byzantium controlled Jerusalem, Constantinople, Alexandria Antioch and Jerusalem and if the religion in all 5 cities was Orthodox. Once the event fired the Papacy was permanently disabled (no more crusades or papal influence.)

It has always struck me as complete fantasy. And I say this as a guy who did the event in eu2 that let Russia enter into a royal marriage with China.

I also don't think cores/claims= historic irredentialism. Knights in Jerusalem sounds like it makes sense...until you think about how, in game terms other muslim states would band together to stop that conquest (bb) and the native population would not take kindly to foreign overlords (revolt risk.) So maybe a CB for knights to invade Jerusalem, but cores? I don't see it.
 
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unmerged(271387)

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Byzantine AI at it's best should only capture Greece and that on very very very lucky conditions for it:
Westerners and turkomen tribes defeat the ottomans and cause a crisis much larger than the one timur caused
The sultan is deposed from minor asia because of rebellions & Bulgaria
That said,i want to see ottomans pawning but if you want to say if Byzantium was the successor of the roman empire(which it was just as much as the hre) then go to the history forums
 

Ichabod

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Does the Pentarchy event chain have any justification? By 1400 the split and the rise of Islam is established.

Would you be satisfied with the aforementioned "Charlemange Empire being rebuilt" by France victory conditions?

I haven't read everything in this forum, so I'm not exactly sure what was aforementioned, but I do completely agree that the thought that barbarians would try to reestablish a Roman Empire in France four or five hundred years after the Romans left would be nothing more than a complete fantasy.

Knights in Jerusalem sounds like it makes sense...until you think about how, in game terms other muslim states would band together to stop that conquest (bb) and the native population would not take kindly to foreign overlords (revolt risk.) So maybe a CB for knights to invade Jerusalem, but cores? I don't see it.

Because humans have such a great track record of working together in their own interest?
 

Mr. Domino

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Because humans have such a great track record of working together in their own interest?

AFAIK, Bad Boy and the core/infamy system was designed to try and stimulate the coalition building and balance of power wars where states ganged up when one power was viewed as too threatening and expansive, particularly at the expense of the victims co-religious. Stuff like the coalitions against Napoleon, the Hapsburgs or Louis XIV. Right now it seems bad boy is out of Eu4 but coalitions will be included and there will be a system to punish "expansionist" powers. Which is a nice neutral word that maybe gets us away from the talk about irredentism, legitimacy and legal claims.

If in Eu4 cores or strong claims=non-threatening conquests with low risk of revolt or low risk of the possibility of a coalition forming to stop you they should be doled out sparingly.

I'm not sure how it will work in Eu4 without BB. But the idea in previous EUs seemed to be that states rationally seek out their self interest and band against aggressive nations. I would be willing to concede, for the sake of argument, that Byzantium is "the Roman Empire" and has ironclad legal claims to Egypt and Gaul. That does not mean they should be able to expand into either province without terrifying their neighbors or expect strong local resistance so, in game terms, they shouldn't get cores on Egypt or France and if there is a system that punishes expansionism, that system should kick in when the Byzantiums start marching their armies all around the Med. A strong and expansionist Byzantium that was gobbling up Italy and the Middle East and talked about having designs on the provinces of "Gaul" is at least expansionist as Louis XIV and it should scare European states just as much, if not more, than he ever did. I also don't see why Muslim states shouldn't form their own coalitions.
 

unmerged(271387)

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Expasionist naitons however should be able to overcome such obstacles as coalitions sometimes
 

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Nobody's saying "Calling them Roman is not allowed"; I just think that treating them as the heir to the Roman empire - and giving them the cores to suit that status - is kind of silly.
Then we are in agreement I suppose - they shouldn't have cores/claims on anything other than Greece proper, and then not even all of it due to crusader states and Epeiros. It should also be nearly impossible to survive as Romania/ERE, it should be one of those countries that provide an exceptional challenge for skilled players, like Granada or Navarra. The AI should rarely ever succeed as such countries, and when they do it is due to extreme luck or high player intervention with the single purpose to keep them alive.

But yeah, the emperor in Constantinople was by 1444 not more than the ruler of a citystate surrounded by and subservient to a powerful soon-to-be empire. Even if the Turks failed with taking the city directly, they could starve it out due to controlling both the Dardanells and the Bosporus - nevermind that the city in question was a shadow of its former self by that time.
 

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No, the USA recognizes it due to Cold War politics which is AN ENTIRELY DIFFERENT STORY because of the Sino-Soviet Split and Mao's BS thought of opposing 'Soviet Social Imperialism' - even to go so far as to somewhat ally with the US and more so going against the USSR than the USA.

Recognizes what, PRC or ROC? The US shifted its recognition from ROC to PRC for cold war political reasons, but those reasons were ultimately rooted in realpolitik. Most of the rest of the world had already done so by the time the US got around to it, mostly due to US domestic politices ("only Nixon could go to China", etc...). In 1945 everybody recognized ROC. Had ROC remained in control of most of the mainland and the PRC was off in the boonies on Soviet life support, likely nobody outside the Soviets & Warsaw Pack would recognize PRC (maybe not them, IIRC in 1945 USSR still recognized ROC from before Mao's revolution really got off the ground). If the ROC somehow made a comeback the recognition shift process that occured in the 30 years or so after WWII would tend to reverse.
 

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Er-what do claims or cores mean here? Causus Belli? International recognition of the legitimacy of these wars? Provinces that are easy to rule? If Taiwan somehow won an insane war and held the territory yes, it would get recognized. They probably even would have a much easier time ruling over China than, say, the Japanese. The international community might view it as merely a civil war and not get upset with the balance of power shifting the sameway they would freak if Japan were to invade China and try and conquer it...

But if Byzantium somehow conquered all of Italy-the Kings of France and Spain would ally against them for encroaching on areas they had claims to (Byzantium, in game terms, would aquire a lot of BB by conquering Italy and possibly trigger BB wars if they weren't carefull.) I doubt Catholic Italians would seamlessly become loyal to the new Emperor (the native population would have high revolt risk). So why should the Byzantines get any claims or cores in the West?

I believe I stated upthread someplace that for purposes of discussion I'm assuming a separation between claim = CB for war to take control of the province and core = acceptance by the province's population of your legitimacy as their ruler. I think it is legit to give BYZ (or any other popular subject of fantasy scenarios) events/missions with claims that kick in as the circumstances make them realistic, while being essentially fantasy the AI should seldom if ever achieve those prerequesites so they's mostly be dormant except for human players. I don't think it is legit to give BYZ cores on non-Greek provinces except through the same mechanism anybody gains cores through long uninterrupted ownership.
 

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EDIT: For the record, the Pentarchy decision fired if Byzantium controlled Jerusalem, Constantinople, Alexandria Antioch and Jerusalem and if the religion in all 5 cities was Orthodox. Once the event fired the Papacy was permanently disabled (no more crusades or papal influence.)

It has always struck me as complete fantasy. And I say this as a guy who did the event in eu2 that let Russia enter into a royal marriage with China.

Written ike that it is a fantasy. BYZ resurgent to dominate Italy though, it would not be. For quite a long time well after the WRE was history, Papal electrions had to be confirmed by the Emperor in Constantinople and Popes that got out of line (from the Emperor's perspective) could be arrested and brought to Constantinople to answer for it. When BYZ's position in Italy deteriorated to the point that wasn't the case anymore, the Pope became effectively independent and the East-West schism was defacto in existance. Unless the Papacy would relocate outside the resurgent Empire's reach, once Rome was within that reach the schism would effectively be ended in the Orthodox's favor. There would still be a Papacy, but they'd toe the line drawn by Constantinople. Kind of a "Babylonian Captivity" in Rome itself, with the BYZ Emperor in the role of the French King. Gamewise as an alternative to making all Catholics Orthodox that could look like disabling the Cardinals in favor of permanent BYZ control of the Papacy and converting the Empire to Catholic. It would be the same thing because the difference between Catholic & Orthodox is what would be going away.