Notice About Vehicles At Large Waters - A Read (NAVAL WAR)

[CourvosierAD]

Notice About Vehicles At Large Waters - A Read (NAVAL WAR)

Just some of my thoughts about possible improvements for naval warfare whilst using mostly existing mechanics in the game.

Feel free to discuss if the listed problems are really problems or if they should be interpreted differently. The same goes for the solutions.
Please refer in the discussions to the points clearly with Px or Sx: b) for example.

Concrete numbers are from the eu4wiki (if it is still right).
Also English is not my main language, so correct if you feel the need to do so.


Problems:


P1: Under the statement that quality at force limit is more important than money at force limit (empires with big fleets have the money anyway) goes that Heavy ships are better (stronger [and faster on the map]) than Galleys, even in inland seas. This makes it so that every empire (not AI) with more than one or two coastal provinces outside inland seas uses no Galleys.

P2: Strait - Crossings can be blockaded completely by one ship (e.g. a Transport) no matter the amount of troops that try to cross it.

P3: A Province can harbor an unlimited amount of ships. Thus no tactical thinking (playing the game) is offered at all, or is anyone parking all its regiments in one province.

P4: Fleets get completely wiped out (better than some patches ago) in one battle.
This means one battle and the naval parts of a war are won, cleaning up smaller fleet hiding in ports aside.

P5: There is absolutely no control over the big canals (e.g. Panama) that you can build.

P6: The bigger fleet wins (supposedly it is not Transports / Light ships vs. Heavy ships). Thus no tactical thinking (playing the game) is offered at all, or are better players not composing there army for the big encounter (combat with to - amount of infantry, flanking cavalry [or infantry if modifiers permit] and backrow cannons) as well as circling armies with leader in and out of combat for the moral management.


Solutions:


S1: a) for P1
The strategic movement speed is 6 for Heavy ships and 4 for Galleys.
The speed for Heavy ships in coastal inland seas should have a penalty, because of riffs and other dangers close to the surface. The penalty could be x0.5 so that Heavy ships can be overtaken by Galleys in coastal inland seas.
So in deep sea: The strategic movement speed is 6 for Heavy ships and 4 for Galleys.
And in costal inland sea: The strategic movement speed is 3 for Heavy ships and 4 for Galleys.

S1: b) for P1 and partially P5
In deep sea:
_Ship type____tec level_______ship________________ship hull______cannons ______tactical speed
_Heavy ship___25___________Threedecker__________60___________120__________5
_Galleys_______24___________Archipelago Frigate___24___________36___________8
_Light Ship____26___________Great frigate__________24___________30___________10

In inland sea:
Galleys get a +100% bonus to their strength in inland seas (e.g. Mediterranean, Baltic, Japan) versus other ship types (e.g. also vs. Transports and Light ships).
_Ship type____tec level_______ship________________ship hull______cannons ______tactical speed
_Heavy ship___25___________Threedecker__________60___________120__________5
_Galleys_______24___________Archipelago Frigate___48___________72___________8
_Light Ship____26___________Great frigate__________24___________30___________10

Since the Galley bonus already haphazardly changes the hull and cannons of a ship, we could do the same again. For the same reasons as in ‘S1.a)’ a Heavy ship should have a penalty in inland seas, which could again be x0.5. Everything in deep sea remains the same and in inland sea:
_Ship type____tec level_______ship________________ship hull______cannons ______tactical speed
_Heavy ship___25___________Threedecker__________30___________60___________5
_Galleys_______24___________Archipelago Frigate___48___________72___________8
_Light Ship____26___________Great frigate__________24___________30___________10

Heavy ships still beat everything but Galleys in inland seas. We now have a real incentive to use Galleys over Heavy ships. Of course the costs of Heavy ships (a little less than before) and Galleys (maybe more than before) need to be newly balanced, but keep in mind that there is way more deep sea then inland sea.

Any empire that has more emphasis on coasts uses an all Light ship navy anyway because:
In deep sea:
_Ship type____tec level_______ship________________ship hull______cannons ______tactical speed
_Galleys_______24___________Archipelago Frigate___24__________36___________8
_Light Ship____26___________Great frigate__________24__________30___________10


S2: a) for P2
Assuming crossing a strait means troops ferry or walk by low tide between two provinces with a ‘small’ piece of water in between, it is questionable that one ship could be capable to stop them all.
Seeing that blockade efficiency readily gives us a working mechanic, troops should only be allowed to use a strait if neither the starting nor the destination province are fully blockaded by an enemy (you are at war with), a rival (even if not at war with you, e.g. he and you can be at different wars with the destination province) or anyone who you do not have fleet basing rights (or military access?) with (same reason as rival).

S2: b) for P2
Somewhat more complicated to accomplish but completing the above is the idea that if a province of the two is partially blockaded the troops should be allowed to cross but receive scaling to the percentage of the blockade moral damage and casualties e.g.:
_province_____blockade percentage_____moral loss_____casualties
_destination__50%_______________________50%___________25% (=250 men per regiment)
_Resulting in 50% Moral and 75% regiment strength.
If both provinces are partially blockaded then the crossing should recive both penalties e.g.:
_province_____blockade percentage_____moral loss_____casualties
_starting______90%_______________________90%___________45% (=450 men per regiment)
_destination__50%_______________________50%___________25% (=250 men per regiment)
_Resulting in 0% moral and 30% regiment strength.


S3: for P3
Since development exist we can take diplomatic (production) development of a province and say that without naval buildings it can harbour x1 the amount of ships, dock could increase it to x2, a drydock to x4, shipyard cold add x1 and a grand shipyard cold instead add x2. e.g.:
_dip.dev.____dock_______drydock______shipyard______grand shipyard______harbor max
_8__________________________________________________________________________8___(x1)
_8___________yes___________________________________________________________16__(x2)
_8___________yes________________________yes________________________________24__(x[2+1])
_8________________________yes______________________________________________32__(x4)
_8________________________yes________________________yes___________________48__(x[4+2])
_15_______________________yes________________________yes___________________90__(x[4+2])


S4: for P4 with help of S3
Balance wise a middle ground between now (fleet gets wiped out) and some patches ago (nearly full fleet black flags to the nearest harbor, repairs, comes back later and repeat).
With S3 in mind we can let more ships flee after a fight since a fleet will flee together to the nearest harbor. This now needs a better logic so that they only flee to the biggest harbor within a reasonable distance. If this can be accomplished then the fleeing ships that are too many for the harbor would be at a standstill (till moral recovers) in the sea before it, still have attrition and could be stack wiped similar to an army. At the same time, with good prepared harbors the surviving fleet has a chance at making a comeback like an army that retreats behind a fort.


S5: for P5
This probably requires more work. If only fleet basing rights with the independent tag or the overlord of the dependent tag that controls the province of the canal would allow one to pass a canal it would give a great control and reward the accomplishment of building said canal in the first place. Maybe a canal cold work as two harbors (one for each direction) that accept ships from one sea zone and put them out to the other, but that can only the designers/programmer know.


S6: for P6
This is a thought one. S1 to S5 should help it somewhat:
_S1 – Different fleets for different waters.
_S2 – More dedication needed to stop straits crossing and tactical thinking if you want your enemy to
______cross a partially blockaded strait to inflict losses on him in preparation for a land fight.
_S3 – Peacetime preparations for war and decision making on which provinces to make into harbours.
_S4 – Hopefully more and still meaningful fights before the naval side of a war is decided (plus stack
______wiping glory times).
_S5 – Diplomatic control of the shortest sea routs around the globe.

Besides the above it could be possible to give naval conflicts more meaning with the ’Artillery Fire Modifier’ that as per eu4wiki when one party in the fight has technological advantage above the other is increased proportional to the technological difference. It is thought worthy if this should be applied the amount of ideas taken from the ‘Naval - idea group‘ (this also gives this idea group more worth again).

If you have ideas to add, please do so.

 

[Arjik]

These are very nice ideas, especially about more specialisation to the ship types. I actually suggested awhile back similar ideas in the suggestion forum (you should probably post there your thoughts). Personally, I think naval warfare should get an overhaul and become somewhat close to land warfare, with battle formations, flanking and such. Heavy ships would take the center, galleys and light ships are on the flanks and transports are in the back. Could add some value to admirals and finally get rid of the "most heavies win" battles.

 

[sterrius]

Naval really need is another mechanic.

The one we have now will never really work to deep the strategy of naval combat. Numbers will always be the main factor and changing things like speed will only make people rely more on baits to get the faster fleet that can´t face a heavy one head on.

Maybe go Hearts of Iron route. The batters in the sea really are a lot more complicated than just lining up to fire and getting close to board and back.

Also unless my country is small in a way i need every ship count i have very little desire to get naval ideas. Even more with exploration giving me naval force limit.

 

[Loha4]

It would take major changes to the cost of heavy's to make that viable. Nobody would want to pay for something that costs 5x the price and upkeep when the galley actually majorly outclasses it. Plus the very idea of a galley single-handedly destroying a ship of the line doesn't feel very realistic, certainly would never happen in something like empire total war gamewise.

 

[wingzero890]

Maybe heavies should function more like artillery, defended by light ships or galleys in the 'front line'.

 

[GoodWill(TM)]

With the rebalanced ship costs the real alternative to the Galley is not the Heavy but the LightShip:

- fights equally well everywhere
- costs 0.05, so only 0.01 more than a galley
- blockades the crap out of everything
- protects trade for about half its maintenance cost in peace times, effectively reducing the maintenance to ~0.03

Currently, there is no reason to build galleys over lights unless you plan on blowing them in an epic mediterranean war right away.

 

[Hakuromatsu]

Pre-vacation, Wiz teased a naval dev diary but we never got one, which leads me to believe there's a heavily WIP naval overhaul in the works that they aren't ready to reveal yet.

As for the OP, I agree with P1, P2, P3, P5 (for as long as canals are a feature, which they still shouldn't be), and P6. P4 is iffy because there were make-or-break naval engagements that had the power to shape history (Spanish Armada, Lepanto, etc.), arguably on a level greater than individual land engagements -- I think if the other problems are fixed, P4 becomes less of an issue because these major naval engagements will feel epic (i.e. they'll be the culmination of economic, strategic, and tactical planning, rather than just happenstantial occurrences).

I agree with S1a, S2a, S3, and S5. S1b seems arbitrary and S2b seems complicated (especially since S2a provides an elegant solution).

All in all this is a great post! Love seeing thought-out stuff like this.

 

[Accolades]

To me it sounds like you're making a bunch of outlandish generalizations and suggestions without knowing anything about actual naval warfare, just stop.

 

[GoodWill(TM)]

Well ... the Spanish Armada thing (Francis Drake etc.) is arguably one of the most renowned epic naval battles in human history and it did have widereaching consequences.

 

[net.split]

Galleys as a whole are problematic. They rarely saw action after the 1500s and, with a couple exceptions, were already in decline in the late 1400s. Following history, any late-game galley use should largely be to deter pirates; however, light ships already do this, and galleys don't get their advantage on coastal provinces that aren't inland seas (for some reason).

Naval warfare needs revamping altogether. I'd like to see ships take manpower (& boost national manpower values a bit to compensate). Each ship would get a crew number that reflects its manpower usage. In addition to the current values, there could be new numbers for boarding power & boarding resistance. Boarding would cost you lots of crew manpower even if it succeeds. Ships taking damage would nick manpower a little, but you would still keep most of the crew until the ship sinks completely (or gets into a boarding battle).

Then, instead of heavy ships and galleys, you'd have gunships and boarding ships (with boarding ships requiring far more manpower but fewer ducats). Since EU battles take many days to go through phases instead of hours for gameplay reasons, you could do similar things here -- boarding can't happen until gunships have had a few rounds in the initial phase to fire on enemy vessels. Boarding vessels would have low resistance to enemy gunfire & lose more crew if they're fired on, so you'd want to protect them with gunships of your own (targeting could be such that gunships tend to fire on other gunships first). And of course targeting gets spread out instead of focus-fire on individual vessels. Optimal naval configuration would thus depend on your national bonuses, enemy bonuses, enemy naval configurations, and your admiral's abilities.

A cool bonus for Naval group would be unlocking the ability to send units on transports to participate in naval battles with a boarding function. Maritime might increase crew size on all ships except boarding vessels to improve your ability to resist enemy boarding attempts.

To add versatility to coastal / inland battles vs sea battles, boarding ships could be vastly less effective on the open seas (provinces with neither inland sea nor coastal traits). This would probably be done through the phases, so that firing phases are longer and boarding phases are much shorter.

 

[LordNeidhart]

I don't really see P2 as a problem, with the exception of using a transport ship for blockades. What good is a massive army if it's locked in strait transport barges and the like against even a single galley or light ship?

 

[Arjik]

Some other random thought - assign each sea and ocean zone its size and use it as Combat Width in naval battle. This could range from 5 for very small zones to something like 25 for big open ocean zones. Of course, it would scale with military or diplomatic tech.

 

[sterrius]

Here is my idea. Its close to what netsplit said but also close to how land battles work.


4 ships like always. But alongside cannons we would add the "Manpower" status, that work in the Shock Phase. Also as we're now having a width we can have Flanking range too.

Width -> Would work close to what arjik said. Some areas like gibraltar would give bonus to the defender and have a small width, a fight in the middle of the ocean have nothing stopping you from field as many ships as you can. (The width will be closer to 25-50, numbers are important to ships and the medieval era got some huge battles with hundreds of ships).

- The ships would fill the line (Heavy first, galley flank, transports and light behind), the ships in the second line work like artilhary, so while it would be super cool to have 50 heavys and let one support the other a heavy + Light ship would have a lot more efficiency for the money.

They would fight like land battles and as it is now. Fire -> Shock bla bla but here comes the problem.

While land troops can go to 0 strenght, ships can´t. So they need a mechanic to "Escape" and one to "pursue" so that both sides have chance to avoid or keep the combat going.

After morale going to 0 at each phase (3 days) the losing fleet would use the roll to escape. Here instead of fire/shock both sides would use instead the leader maneuver. The winner get the results they want. (Escape/keep the fight going).

Maneuver would become essential, even more than fire or shock. A good number of maneuver would make your fleet easy to evade any battle and almost impossible to escape from you!
If you order a retreat before your morale goes to 0 you get a bonus, as you're retreating ordely.

Also ships with very low durability would try to change places in the middle of the combat from the front line to the rear line to avoid sinking. The ship will succed if you get a good roll, but if the enemy wins the ship is locked in the fight until it suceeds or sink.


About the ships. I will add a number 1 to 10 to each stat just to make it simple. (Focus on the idea im trying to imply here, not the stats)

Fire (Cannons) / Shock (manpower) / HP / Flank

Heavy Ship 5 / 2 / 7 / 1
Light Ship 3 / 3 / 5 / 2
Galley 2 / 4 / 4 / 3
Transport 1 / 3 / 2 / 1

Every battle ship have 6 pips. Heavy ship 7 and more hp so they will always win a 1x1 fight and survive, and can even face 2 or 3 light ships with some trouble. (With a chance of losing, the big fire bonus will make sure you will get very little damage in the fire phase, but they are vulnerable in the shock as most of their cannons can´t hit smaller vessels in close range).

Galley strong shock is to represent their troops are totally ready for boarding, full of swords, pistols and cannons made to be shot in close range with anti-personel rounds. Also they are fast, the reason they have a big flank range. They would lose in this system the Double Stats buff. Instead fighting in the mediterranean with a good % of galleys would add a bonus to your rolls.

Light ships are supposed to be the Spine of your fleet. So while they represent merchant ships they also represent wide selection of ships.

Why transport so weak? Because they are cannon fooder. They are meant to be defended not to be used in the main battles, also those ships are not meant to be used for boarding or resist cannon fire. IF you wish to bring them to a naval battle be prepared to lose some. This will force the enemy to first make the sea secure before starting to bring the troops.
The game for now reward the player for bringing transports in a battle while in reality it needs to be a penalty.