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unmerged(11746)

First Lieutenant
Nov 17, 2002
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Just FYI:

Did you ever wonder why the UK manages to do so poorly at sea (in the Med especially) despite its great navy? Here's the answer:


Oil on convoys to remote provinces:

When you set up the convoy routes for the various countries you "must" ensure that they supply BOTH oil and supplies.

The reason is that the Ai will NOT change existing convoys to supply oil to provinces that it is allready supplying supplies to at the start of the game. ATm most MODs (and the game default) start off only supplying supplies and not oil - in these circumstances the AI simply will not change to start supplying oil, effectively rendering such bases as useless to units that require oil.


EG>

The UK supplies Singapore, Malta and Gibraltar with supplies via convoy...but no il.

If the AI tries to base ships or other units that require oil in those provinces they will NOT get any as there isnt any being shipped. The AI cannot change the exisitng convoys so this is one reason for UK failure in naval encounters in many MODS.

Thus: All default convoys need to ensure two things:

They supply Oil to provinces that may require it (in the future or immediately).

That any convoys eminating from those provinces aren't simply shipping the oil right back out of the province.


(The default AI establishment of convoys does just this - moving oil, coal, steel and rubber no matter what is in those provinces)


What this means:

In mods such as BOLTs some provinces are effectively "dead-ends" for naval units and units that require oil.

MODs need to start off with correct convoy systems in BOTH directions or the AI will never arrange them properly for DEFAULT (starting) convoys. The AI can cope with establishing NEW convoys - just it wont change existing ones.



Further Note on Transports/fleets:

Another issue with the AI is its failure to split default fleets. Once again this is very specific to STARTING fleets.

The problem here is that the AI does not split off transports from combat vessels, thus fleets such as the UK's end up being used as convoy escorts just because it starts off with 2 transports in it.

If you create the transports in default starting fleets ont heir own and with even just one destroyer then the AI will use them more effectively and also wont run the "associated" combat vessels into the seabed travelling long distances.

Similar "failure to split fleets" issues also cause other problems with naval countries - so its best to create starting fleets that are allready grouped and defined properly - unfortunately the AI doesnt always stick with these but not a lot we can do about that, only try to prevent it as much as possible.


Major Country Convoy Problems:

The following countries have exisitng convoy issues (oil supply) due to the above reason that create distinct problems for the AI (varies with mod):

UK (malta, gibraltar, Singapore, freetown, colombo, bombay, hong kong - also note that the default starting convoys are also shipping any oil right back out also, so check both directions)
Japan (Various default island groups that Japan starts with)
France (though less of an issue once france falls so...)

Whilst this may not seem a major problem in tests it makes a dramatic difference. Hope that helps.
 

unmerged(12007)

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Nov 27, 2002
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I rationalized the UK convoy system a version (at least partially) a while ago in Bolted HoI. Also did the same for France, Belgium and the Netherlands.

I noticed this myself and corrected it something like three weeks ago.

DD as far as I am concerned, I am aware of this issue and did put some work in Bolted HoI to fix it. I was amazed at what I found back then about how the convoys had been set up in default HoI and to the extent possible in the time constraints did make a number of significant corrections to them.

Rationalizing the UK convoy system does NOT fix the larger issues related to fleet movement or use of fleets, but as you say it definately needed fixing for other reasons.

About all it does is insure that goods get picked up and the economies are a bit more efficient. AI still behaves stupidly, splits, stops fleets for no reason. Has nothing to do with a non-rationalized convoy system.

I'm building on the convoy rationalization I started earlier by now insuring that every available rubber is being sold on the market at start, and that all the major neutrals and major belligerents at least "start off" with rationalized hardcoded market trades. This is *the* major problem with most economies; and without this they will function at less than 50% of IC output. With these fixes the IC output gets boosted to around 80%, and nations research and build apparently normally.

Experiments along these lines have resulted in the Poland AI doubling the army size in 2.5 years, and doubling the attack/defense capacities through research in the same timeframe.

(edited - Bolt)
 
Last edited:

Ibn

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I did a quick fix, set oil to be moved everywhere supplies were moving. didn't seem to matter, the Naval AI bug ruins the fleets Org levels regardless.
 

unmerged(12920)

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Dec 19, 2002
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Maybe if an oil reserve would be set for collecting provinces (e.g. 200 units) below which no oil is taken back to homeland by convoys?

For the future:
Oil should be treated as raw oil and supplies divided into supplies and fuel.
 

Marquoz

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Wouldn't that be great? I hate trying to perfectly balance oil shipments away from producing areas so that my armor/mech/motorized don't run out but my homeland gets as much as it needs. Royal pain.
 

unmerged(11746)

First Lieutenant
Nov 17, 2002
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Well im finding a significant difference in gameplay after changing the default convoying... mostly apparent in the mediteranean where the british navy now holds its own and beats the italian navy most (if not all) of the time.

Sure the Ai still messes up fleet orgs but at least now it has the chance to use Gibraltar, malta etc as naval bases, which is wasnt doing very well at all beforehand.

Whilst none of us can fix the Ai issues at least this stops it being further hindered... little steps are better than none eh.

(Btw im using your 1.02b atm bolt - works better in naval terms, with the convoy changes, for both the brits and the japanese)
 

unmerged(8000)

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Feb 28, 2002
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In my modifications I have made the most efficient convoy system for a given country (UK, France and Italy etc...) including both Resource shipments home and Oil and Supply shipments to likely useful locations throughout their empires then I saved that game and found all the convoys in the save game file through notepad and copied them back into the original xxx.inc file.

It seems to work to a degree but I never bothered playing many games without this modification so I can't really compare, is it common to see UK and France fighting and usually defeating Italy in Africa? Also the British send about 10 devisions to India and Fight hard aginst the Japanese but usually lose to vastly superior numbers of Japanese divisions.

I have looked at the AI playing halfway through the game and they always seem to create many superfluous convoys some don't dont have any ships or escorts etc...