Note: The 'Will Not Fight Against Religious Brethren' modifier goes both ways.

Sidolowka

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So Deus Vult was recently changed to not call in allies of the same faith as your target, which may techincally seem like a nerf.

On a closer look though, it's more of a 'change', because the effect goes both ways.

20211113013626_1.jpg



Here you can see Hindu Koch, who would usually join the war against their Vajrayana ally U, not join because I am a Hindu nation as well.

I feel like this is a good change overall, because it makes no sense for Catholic Spain fighting against a Catholic Austria trying to convert its HRE princes — same goes for the Mamluks helping Spain crusade into Tunis.

If the community feels like this change acts as an overall nerf though, an interesting idea to consider would be to have religious brethren have +20 reasons to join against Holy Wars against Heathens and +10 reasons against Heretics — thematic overall, while being a noticable but not overpowered buff to religious ideas.
 
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Astalic

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This break the alliance or they don't have the CTA ? Because if this break the alliance you can abuse it and it should be changed to a penalty (like -50 so if they allied your target because you are their rival and they hate you they join anyways)
 
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Sidolowka

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This break the alliance or they don't have the CTA ? Because if this break the alliance you can abuse it and it should be changed to a penalty (like -50 so if they allied your target because you are their rival and they hate you they join anyways)
Not sure if it straight up doesn't give you a CTA, but Koch lost the alliance afterwards.
 

Astalic

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Should not be a -1000 IMO.

Even in history religion was important indeed, but if you can screw your rival you should take the opportunity (France was very good at this, allying ottoman against Austria, joining the protestant an giving cash to protestant sweden in the 30 year war... and crusader got helped a lot by local muslim who wanted to use the situation).

Now, this give a new value to religious idea wich is interesting.
 
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RMS Oceanic

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I'm not sure if it's 100% working as intended though. As Byzantium I attacked Iraq and co-beligerated Shirvan, and it told me that Shirvan's ally Circassia wouldn't join because we're both Orthodox, but they ended up joining. Might need tweaking.
 
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Sidolowka

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I'm not sure if it's 100% working as intended though. As Byzantium I attacked Iraq and co-beligerated Shirvan, and it told me that Shirvan's ally Circassia wouldn't join because we're both Orthodox, but they ended up joining. Might need tweaking.
Maybe because they were the ally of a co-belligerent? Pretty sure if Shirvan was Orthodox too Circassia would not have joined. (But then again Shirvan wouldn't have joined then either)

Agree that it might need a look at.
 

Larva

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Maybe because they were the ally of a co-belligerent? Pretty sure if Shirvan was Orthodox too Circassia would not have joined. (But then again Shirvan wouldn't have joined then either)

Agree that it might need a look at.
That's because it is broken now. Modifier only applied on the war start, but it doesn't work for 'Call to Arms' diplo action, as you can see in discussion in this thread:
 
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JacobiteJames

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Should not be a -1000 IMO.

Even in history religion was important indeed, but if you can screw your rival you should take the opportunity (France was very good at this, allying ottoman against Austria, joining the protestant an giving cash to protestant sweden in the 30 year war... and crusader got helped a lot by local muslim who wanted to use the situation).
Ottomans were just using conquest cb, could be seen as enforce peace as they join 30 years war when Austria in ascendancy and subsidies can always be given
Now, this give a new value to religious idea wich is interesting.
 
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watchout86

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Maybe because they were the ally of a co-belligerent? Pretty sure if Shirvan was Orthodox too Circassia would not have joined. (But then again Shirvan wouldn't have joined then either)

Agree that it might need a look at.

I played a game where, as a catholic, I used Deus Vult on Morocco, who was allied to (or guaranteed by? I don't remember, but I'm fairly sure it was an actual alliance) catholic France (my rival) in order to keep me in check; France had the -1000 modifier, so I figured it would be an easy war with France out of the picture... but France immediately joined the war anyways. So something is off with the modifier, or it gets nullified without letting us know it will in certain situations. It's not a case of co-belligerence breaking it.
 

EarlKonrad

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I feel like this is a good change overall, because it makes no sense for Catholic Spain fighting against a Catholic Austria trying to convert its HRE princes — same goes for the Mamluks helping Spain crusade into Tunis.

If the community feels like this change acts as an overall nerf though, an interesting idea to consider would be to have religious brethren have +20 reasons to join against Holy Wars against Heathens and +10 reasons against Heretics — thematic overall, while being a noticable but not overpowered buff to religious ideas.

Sure, let's NERF an already weak idea group by gutting one, if not the, best bonus it has and one of the main reason why some advocate for getting the group early. Just because in some cases it wouldn't make much historical sense?
 
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Shiny Dog

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Look, I'm just happy Religious Ideas is getting something. It's completely beaten by its rival, Humanist, even more-so due to the -2% penalty for missionaries in territories.
 
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EarlKonrad

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Look, I'm just happy Religious Ideas is getting something. It's completely beaten by its rival, Humanist, even more-so due to the -2% penalty for missionaries in territories.

Not only it didn't get anything but it also got worse.
 

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What would really be nice, is if religious CB's gave extra reasons for an Ally to join if they are the same religion as you, against a different religion.
 
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Not only it didn't get anything but it also got worse.
Yeah, I guess you're right. I was just happy that you could, perhaps, tank the Franco-Ottoman Alliance, but the knife cuts both ways.
 
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annulen

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I think reason modifiers should be different for defensive and offensive CTA. Not joining attacker's side has no consequences, but breaking alliance can be very harmful for the country that refused CTA.
 

EarlKonrad

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I am observing this modifier say nations will not join the war, then they join it anyway. So it's bugged somehow.

People report that the modifier only apply to war declaration. After that it goes away, meaning that most nations will agree to join the war once it starts.
 
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