Not really an AAR

[Dark Knight]

I think Vurbil and Polski are exaggerating the ease of conquering the world in EU. JP has played the game extensively for over 10 months, was playing the easiest nation, might have been playing without the possibility of civil wars, and still needed to reload saved games several times in order to conquer the world within the timespan of the game. It obviously isn't easy.

 

[unmerged(252)]

Originally posted by Dark Knight:
I think Vurbil and Polski are exaggerating the ease of conquering the world in EU. JP has played the game extensively for over 10 months, was playing the easiest nation, might have been playing without the possibility of civil wars, and still needed to reload saved games several times in order to conquer the world within the timespan of the game. It obviously isn't easy.

I already addressed this point. The ease of doing it is irrelevant. The mere possibility of doing something so ridiculous is the problem. He was playing on very hard, this wasn't even an easier level.

Yeah, we all conquered the world in Civ2 and Imp. That's what I'm sick of! I want a real game that approximates real life.

Don't you see that when a game is this easy it destroys all strategy and fun. How can I have fun planning to liberate Calais and establish a few colonies when I know that I can conquer the whole world? It just destroys the fun for me.



[This message has been edited by Vurbil (edited 25-10-2000).]

 

[KRonn]

Originally posted by Dark Knight:
I think Vurbil and Polski are exaggerating the ease of conquering the world in EU. JP has played the game extensively for over 10 months, was playing the easiest nation, might have been playing without the possibility of civil wars, and still needed to reload saved games several times in order to conquer the world within the timespan of the game. It obviously isn't easy.

I tend to agree with you. The beta-zoids have tried valiantly to explain that the game is not easy. An awful lot of work has apparently gone into tweaking, adjusting and play testing the AI.

But perhaps its also a good idea to bring up any doubts and air them out.

 

[unmerged(13)]

I think some of you guys need to take your medicine. You're all acting like a bunch of savages. Now, if this is how you're all going to react when an aar gets posted, people will stop posting aar's.

Vurbil,

I'm not Paradox, and I'll answer you how I see fit. If you have a problem with that, go and take it up with a psychiatrist. They may have the humility and patience to take your crap, I won't.


I've already explained to you some of the reasons for JP's success in the thread in the general forums, so I'm not going to add anymore here. If you guys are going to treat the beta testers like you have in this thread, then they'll quite simply bugger off and do other things. They are not being paid to do this.. and they can only explain the facts to you a few times before getting annoyed themselves.


EU IS A GAME, like all games it has its strengths and weaknesess. Stop think of it as the second coming and you'll enjoy the game.

Sapura

[This message has been edited by Sapura (edited 25-10-2000).]

 

[unmerged(252)]

hehe, more brilliant PR by Sapura...


Typical Sapura thread. A lot of arrogance. A lot of hostility (talk about seeing a psychologist!). A lot of insults. Not much substance.

I take my valuable time to explain logically why I think there is a flaw here, and all you have for me is insults.

A lot of people give you way too much of a free ride around here, Mr. Sap. Comments like 'you people need to take medication' and 'you people need to see a psychologist' are way out of line. That's childish stuff. Adults address the issues, children make personal attacks.

[This message has been edited by Vurbil (edited 25-10-2000).]

 

[unmerged(13)]

The only hostility here is directed towards you.

As for my arrogant replies, I think they're justified when it comes to replying to your charming messages which are always so full of seething annoyance / whining / problems.


Childish? The only one acting childish here is you in your inability and impatience to wait for the game you continually write msgs that are on par with a kid's whine about not getting a new toy.


Sapura

 

[unmerged(252)]

Anyway, for those of us who wish to speak about EU rather than play some childish flame-game, I do think it is a problem that you can conquer the entire world on the hardest level. Many people have posted here saying they agree with me, others have disagreed. I think those that said they disagree probably actually agree but may be afraid to say so.

I think EU is a great game, but to think any game at any time could ever be made and there not be some way to improve it is foolish. Someday a game better than EU will come out. I hope that game will be EU2, and I hope that a feature of it will be that the AI is more challenging and the goals a player must set will be more realistic.

[This message has been edited by Vurbil (edited 25-10-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Vurbil (edited 25-10-2000).]

 

[unmerged(90)]

In EU, you can conquer the world in hardest level by :
- Playing France, Russia, Ottoman or Spain AND
- Know the game very well (will happen to anyone after a few months) AND
- play slowly to have time to perfectly plan everything AND
- reload a few times when shit happens.

Like this, you cannot lose.

It doesn't please you? The answer is VERY easy:
Play without pause and without reloading, or (same conditions + human opponents) play multiplayer.

'Etonnant, non ?'

 

[unmerged(234)]

Originally posted by Vurbil:
Anyway, for those of us who wish to speak about EU rather than play some childish flame-game, I do think it is a problem that you can conquer the entire world on the hardest level. Many people have posted here saying they agree with me, others have disagreed. I think those that said they disagree probably actually agree but may be afraid to say so.

I think EU is a great game, but to think any game at any time could ever be made and there not be some way to improve it is foolish. Someday a game better than EU will come out. I hope that game will be EU2, and I hope that a feature of it will be that the AI is more challenging and the goals a player must set will be more realistic.

[This message has been edited by Vurbil (edited 25-10-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Vurbil (edited 25-10-2000).]

Ok, I think we all can agre that EU is not perfect, but that it is by far (according on the information I got so far, I have not the game yet) the best. The AI is very good but seems unwilling to stop infighting to stop Nation growing to major threats.

 

[unmerged(13)]

I think those that said they disagree probably actually agree but may be afraid to say so.


Yes of course! <shakes head> My god what planet are you LIVING on?
Of course they are afraid because the might of Sapura will strike them down and they'll be banned from the forum or something like that yes?

Sapura

 

[unmerged(252)]

I agree with you 100% Janbalk.

 

[unmerged(232)]

Originally posted by Vurbil:
Many people have posted here saying they agree with me, others have disagreed. I think those that said they disagree probably actually agree but may be afraid to say so.

Huh? Are you stupid, Vurbil? Bacause I disagreed very early on, do you really believe that mean I'm afraid?! I couldn't care less what others think of me on this forum as I'm here for the game, not to be popular.

No game AI will EVER be perfect! Why? Because they only work as good as the programmers made them. Do something in the game that the AI never have been programmed for and it will probably do something stupid in response (like ignoring something obvious). That it actually takes 10 months of experience + a little 'cheating' (I consider reloading cheating ) to find those tactics is rather impressive in my oppinon. Of course, I actually know something about the programming of AIs so it makes it easier to understand for me but IMHO it should still be obvious.

If you want realism, stick to real life. Every single game that'll ever be made will always be a simplification of some part of real life.

Want a better AI? Play with humans. The human brain is the best AI we have.

kdp

PS. Vurbil, I can see you've changed you motto from 'Those that doesn't agree with me are my enemies' to 'A few of those that doesn't agree with me are my enemies, the rest are just scared of the few but actually agrees with me'.

 

[unmerged(252)]

Correct, no game will ever be perfect. Nothing, in fact, will ever be perfect. However, I have never asked for perfection, so that whole argument is out the window.


As I have said many times, creating a great AI is the primary challenge to a strategy game designer. They must strive to make the AI as competent as possible, with the aim of making your challenge in EU resemble as closely as possible the challenge presented to the actual leaders of the country you are playing. However, this should ideally be done without giving the AI any special advantages or allowing the AI to cheat. This is a tough challenge for the designer. I will stipulate that perhaps EU has done the best job of doing this of any game ever made. Nevertheless, of all the parts of EU that I have witnessed, this emerges as the greatest weakness. Perhaps this is because the game is so superb in every other respect.

 

[Emperor of Europe]

Originally posted by Vurbil:


Yeah, we all conquered the world in Civ2 and Imp. That's what I'm sick of! I want a real game that approximates real life

There's something here I really don't get. In another thread on this board you complain quite a lot about the fact that attrition is simulated in EU, and that its effect is far to great despite the fact that the overwhelming majority of losses during the time period covered by EU were attritional.
So real world effects are ok sometimes, but not at other times? Or what?

Anyway, any game against the AI can be won by overwhelming odds with enough training and some cheating - unless the AI cheats as well of course.

To me JB's example just shows, that the AI doesn't cheat, and that it takes a LOT of training and some dedicated cheating to win so overwhelmingly.

Regards,

The E.

BTW: You do realize that Sapura doesn't work for Paradox, right? So your PR remarks are somewhat out of place, since I guess they are directed at the replies Sapura has made to your posts.

------------------
Uhm... nice province. I
think I'll take it.

 

[Endre Fodstad]

Some things have to be said about games and realism:

All games are based upon sets of _rules_. These are usually rather simple, even in a CG.

Reality is not like that. I think I can safely assume that any strategy gamer suddenly thrust into the position of a great power leader in RL would be hopelessly lost. While Napoleon had a lifetime of experience, not all of that experience was put into statesmanship...

A player's understanding of the rules and the system of a CG or BG constitutes an enormous part of his skill at the game...that's why I prefer to play my BG's with people at roughly the same level. This is especially true in a CG, where it's easier to distinguish patterns and trends because you can play it hundreds of times by yourself.

Strategy games are(hopefully) evolving. While the decline of the BG industry has hurt or bankrupted many of the best 'realistic' game companies, the computer game industry (at least partly) trudges on; creating better and better games. I very much doubt we'll see a fully realistic strategy simulation ever (at least not for sane players), EU seems to me a big step ahead.

It also appears that people have a _very_ broad idea of what's realistic on this list-we can't all be historians, of course, but there's no pleasing everybody.

Now you'll have to excuse me: I'm going to go order the swedish version of EU and edit every bloody text file: NO WAY i'm waiting until 2001 to get it...

Endre Fodstad

 

[Devin]

I have to admit that I will begin to enjoy the game a little bit less as I become better at it because each game as a major power becomes less challenging. Fortunately, there are dozens of other minor countries to try out.

But those of you who haven't played the game and are concerned about the quality of the AI are worrying too much. The AI will not only give you a run for your money for a very long time, it will create a dynamic and realistic environment for you to play in. This is the key to enjoying this game. Half the fun is watching European history evolve around you. It's sort of like following a sport. Every game/season is different. Nations/teams rise and fall for a myriad of reasons. If you play the game with the goal of conquering as much of the world as possible, you will get bored after about a month of doing it over and over again. If you enjoy all the subtle interactions, this game will fascinate you for a long time.

I have tried to capture the feel of the game in my AARs. If you've read them and think the game won't entertain you, I don't know what will.

 

[Doomdark]

This is another discussion that I feel should be postponed until everyone has actually played the game.

Looking at the situation from a purely historical standpoint, it could well be that the AI should be better at ganging up on an empire builder... Then again, there were no truly effective alliances to stop Russia in her times of expansion in real history. Quite the opposite. Not even internal upheavals could stop her.

One should also keep in mind the long time frame involved. If France, Turkey or Habsburg Spain had done everything right and consistently expanded through Europe at a modest pace over the course of 300 years it is not inconceivable that a similar situation would have evolved.

Personally, I don't mind. Yet.

/Doomie

 

[unmerged(341)]

Originally posted by Hetman Polski:
[The Aztec emperor Moctezuma II received news of the Spaniards' arrival will great anxiety.
He believed that Cortes was the great god Quetzalcoatl coming to reclaim his throne.
Moctezuma sent rich gifts to Cortes. The sight of such wealth only caused the Spaniards to march on Tenochtitlan even faster. Along the way Cortes gained allies among the many enemies of the Aztecs.

This is what i call divide and conquer, gaining allies and go for the target.

Originally posted by Hetman Polski:
[The Aztec emperor Moctezuma II received
Moctezuma welcomed Cortes and gave him a palace to use inside the city. the conquistador soon took the emperor prisoner and demanded gold. the Cortes took control over the city without a fight.

This is what i call tricks and cheats

And yes im sorry forgot to mention diseases. I really would like to know kind of stuff ur smoking Polski. I really dont think ppl need to be whacky historians to post on these boards, i know my history maybe not in details but so what. I have played many boardgames/computergames in my life including the EU BG and seen alot of crappy AI/players but the EU CG seems to have the BEST AI yet, the most historic game out there and a great challenge.. WHAT MORE can one ask for. So what after 10months ur able to beat the comp, ill be really glad if im still playing after 10monts.

btw thanks Sapura for all those great AAR, i really enjoyed them ), and i think ur a damm fine PR(if u are a PR that is)

 

[unmerged(267)]

Originally posted by Grettir:
This is what i call tricks and cheats

And yes im sorry forgot to mention diseases. I really would like to know kind of stuff ur smoking Polski. I really dont think ppl need to be whacky historians to post on these boards, i know my history maybe not in details but so what. I have played many boardgames/computergames in my life including the EU BG and seen alot of crappy AI/players but the EU CG seems to have the BEST AI yet, the most historic game out there and a great challenge.. WHAT MORE can one ask for. So what after 10months ur able to beat the comp, ill be really glad if im still playing after 10monts.

btw thanks Sapura for all those great AAR, i really enjoyed them ), and i think ur a damm fine PR(if u are a PR that is)

but these tricks wouldn't have worked against Europeans. Europeans weren't as trusting as the Aztecs were.



------------------
King of the Mighty Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. decendant of the great Jagiellonian Dynasty.

 

[unmerged(13)]

Grettir,


quote:

btw thanks Sapura for all those great AAR, i really enjoyed them ), and i think ur a damm fine PR(if u are a PR that is)

Heh, I appreciate your comments, matey I guess the beta testers have been a sort of a PR for this game, in a way.

But no, officially I'm not PR, unless of course they want to start paying me / other beta testers ? j/k


Sapura