Not Final Numbers are not final, but I hope some are less final than others

  • We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

GC13

The Last Emperor of Sol
90 Badges
Dec 30, 2010
3.181
3.060
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Cities: Skylines - Campus
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Sengoku
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • Tyranny: Gold Edition
  • Tyranny - Bastards Wound
  • Pillars of Eternity
While it's true that Paradox can change any number before release, we've also seen just how malleable the numbers are after release—apparently the enormous community hive mind can tear apart balance more efficiently than the smaller though more focused development hive mind. :cool:

So I made a thread where I said that Warrior Culture was hilariously underpowered at just +20% army damage (and it could easily be +60% and still not be all that valuable), but there are other Civics I've noticed to be problematic to balance.

A big pair is Environmentalist, which reduces consumer good costs by 10%, and Mining Guilds, which increases empire mineral production by 10%. Assuming Mining Guilds increases all mineral production by 10%, if you have at least one mineral being produced per Pop you'd be better off going with it even if you had Utopian living standards (you'll note that the break point here where Environmentalist and Mining Guilds are equal is when you're spending all of your minerals before traits and ethics on consumer goods, and it just gets worse for Environmentalist the less you're spending).

Even if Mining Guilds isn't quite a 10% boost and you were fanatically egalitarian with a conservational main species, you'd still need to be spending a big chunk of your minerals on consumer goods for Environmentalist to be better.

That isn't the problem though: the problem is that with these two civics, at any point in the game I could sit down with a calculator and figure out which was better. Slaver Guilds and Mining Guilds are also very similar, though there's an interesting tradeoff of minerals for food (and the tantalizing possibility of making almost all of your minerals with slaves at the cost of unrest and troop maintenance).

I'd rather civics, Environmentalist and Mining Guilds in particular, be balanced like Parliamentary System and Cutthroat Politics are: again, I could sit down with a calculator and figure out which will give me more Influence, but Cutthroat Politics will always give me that extra Influence while Parliamentary System requires that I keep my factions happy. It ties me more closely to the faction system, but promises upside if I can manage it well.

If Mining Guilds were to, rather than giving that flat bonus instead gave a unique building that basically let us put a second, stacking mineral processing plant on a planet – or if it simply gave us +1 mineral per mining station – we'd be playing differently, as opposed to doing what we always do but getting 10% more minerals. Again, we can use a calculator to determine which gets us more minerals at a given time, but to take advantage of Mining Guilds we'd be changing our actions while Environmentalist would be the safe, sure thing.

Also I think Environmentalist should be buffed. :p
 

Untrustedlife

Major
47 Badges
Jun 9, 2016
574
376
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Warlock 2: Wrath of the Nagas
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Majesty 2 Collection
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Dungeonland
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Prison Architect
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Age of Wonders
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Victoria 2
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Impire
I haven't even seen how consumer goods are calculated. But your mineral idea is pretty great so good point.
Also, anything that changes the playstyle a bit I approve of.
(I wrote about the grey goo problem with procedural generation awhile back (unrelated to stellaris, but it could apply, AI personalities mediate that issue though) , but that not only applies to procedural generation, but also gameplay :D )
 
Last edited:

henzington

Field Marshal
93 Badges
May 28, 2013
3.829
1.624
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma Pre-order
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • BATTLETECH
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • BATTLETECH: Season pass
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • BATTLETECH: Heavy Metal
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Prison Architect
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Victoria 2
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
Balance is always the last step and I would expect changes with a hot fix patch. Army damage is a terrible stat given there is no limit to the number of armies you can invade with. I doubt I would take it even if it was 100% unless it also had an effect on unrest suppression.
 

Bobylein

Captain
71 Badges
May 13, 2016
403
173
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Magicka
  • Leviathan: Warships
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife Pre-Order
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44 Deluxe Edition
  • BATTLETECH
  • Surviving Mars
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44 -  Back to Hell
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Magicka 2
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Cities: Skylines
  • War of the Roses
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • The Showdown Effect
Thanks for the effort GC13, I hope you'll be heard as I agree with your statements!

Balance is always the last step and I would expect changes with a hot fix patch. Army damage is a terrible stat given there is no limit to the number of armies you can invade with. I doubt I would take it even if it was 100% unless it also had an effect on unrest suppression.
Is it confirmed that it doesn't have an effect on it?
 

Ikael

Colonel
May 6, 2016
1.146
1.526
I am on the same page as GC13. Save from a couple of special civics such as Fanatic Purifiers or Mechanists, most of them seem too generic and passive due to them not being tied to your actual actions nor diverting you from basic strategies or rulesets. Another thing that strikes me as a bit grey-gooish is how most of them only offers one single straight bonus. With a little mixing effects and wording, you can create flavourful civics, me thinks (Ex: Sustainable farming techniques, -10% food consumption +10% habitability, Warrior culture, +20% army damage, unlocks fighting arena building, etc).
 

Cat_Fuzz

General
May 10, 2016
1.775
2.381
Have to agree. I have been a bit disappointed that the civics seem a little lacklustre. I was hoping for a greater range of civics that really told a story of how your empire functions, as mentioned in the post above, different types of agrarian cultures. Unique unlocks for civs that reflect their culture (eg mining guilds starts you off with an additional constructor at game start) or variations on civics utilised in different ways (where's the governor, scientist and general equivalents to admired Admirality)?
 

Emraldis

Colonel
41 Badges
May 23, 2016
1.101
111
  • Magicka
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • BATTLETECH
  • Surviving Mars
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • BATTLETECH: Flashpoint
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Magicka 2
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Crusader Kings II
Have to agree. I have been a bit disappointed that the civics seem a little lacklustre. I was hoping for a greater range of civics that really told a story of how your empire functions, as mentioned in the post above, different types of agrarian cultures. Unique unlocks for civs that reflect their culture (eg mining guilds starts you off with an additional constructor at game start) or variations on civics utilised in different ways (where's the governor, scientist and general equivalents to admired Admirality)?
I am on the same page as GC13. Save from a couple of special civics such as Fanatic Purifiers or Mechanists, most of them seem too generic and passive due to them not being tied to your actual actions nor diverting you from basic strategies or rulesets. Another thing that strikes me as a bit grey-gooish is how most of them only offers one single straight bonus. With a little mixing effects and wording, you can create flavourful civics, me thinks (Ex: Sustainable farming techniques, -10% food consumption +10% habitability, Warrior culture, +20% army damage, unlocks fighting arena building, etc).
But you can argue that it is not the single civic itself that gives flavor, but the combination of civics you choose. For example, if I pick warrior culture and mining guilds or something, that could be a society where the warriors train by working the mines, which increases their strength and stamina, and forces them to work together. Or something of the sort. While I agree that more mechanically interesting civics would be a great addition, I don't doubt that there are plans for that in the future, and at the very least, someone will mod something in.
 

Cat_Fuzz

General
May 10, 2016
1.775
2.381
But you can argue that it is not the single civic itself that gives flavor, but the combination of civics you choose. For example, if I pick warrior culture and mining guilds or something, that could be a society where the warriors train by working the mines, which increases their strength and stamina, and forces them to work together. Or something of the sort. While I agree that more mechanically interesting civics would be a great addition, I don't doubt that there are plans for that in the future, and at the very least, someone will mod something in.

I can see your point, but given how there are only two civic picks from the get go, that's a very one dimensional empire. That seems to defy the intention Paradox had with this update.

Mind you, I also realise that traditions and perks will add more flavour, but this is mid / late game customisation.

I think having a more diverse range of civics (albeit tweaks to existing ones as new picks) would help you sculpt a more interesting culture for your empire.
 

Emraldis

Colonel
41 Badges
May 23, 2016
1.101
111
  • Magicka
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • BATTLETECH
  • Surviving Mars
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • BATTLETECH: Flashpoint
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Magicka 2
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Crusader Kings II
I can see your point, but given how there are only two civic picks from the get go, that's a very one dimensional empire. That seems to defy the intention Paradox had with this update.

Mind you, I also realise that traditions and perks will add more flavour, but this is mid / late game customisation.

I think having a more diverse range of civics (albeit tweaks to existing ones as new picks) would help you sculpt a more interesting culture for your empire.
I feel like the best way to do it would be to allow one or two more civic selections, and then give more variety. I don't think civics should have more than one stat boost. You also have to consider that the more civics you make available, and allow the player to have at once, the more balance issues you can start having.
 

Cat_Fuzz

General
May 10, 2016
1.775
2.381
I feel like the best way to do it would be to allow one or two more civic selections, and then give more variety. I don't think civics should have more than one stat boost. You also have to consider that the more civics you make available, and allow the player to have at once, the more balance issues you can start having.

Of course, but then that's where solid QA comes in :/

Tbf - I'm sure modders will step in to make this happen. It's a shame it's not going to be there on release.
 

faljen_isus

Captain
6 Badges
Sep 27, 2016
473
145
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Crusader Kings II
i was wondering would it be possible to stack mining guilds and slaver guilds for the awesome mineral production bonus, and later in game top them off with some very strong industrious proles :D
 

Emraldis

Colonel
41 Badges
May 23, 2016
1.101
111
  • Magicka
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • BATTLETECH
  • Surviving Mars
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • BATTLETECH: Flashpoint
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Magicka 2
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Crusader Kings II
i was wondering would it be possible to stack mining guilds and slaver guilds for the awesome mineral production bonus, and later in game top them off with some very strong industrious proles :D
probably, yeah. Though I'd say it'd be better to go for a syncretic evolution + slaver guilds first, then top it off with some genemodding and a mining guilds civic later on.
 

Emraldis

Colonel
41 Badges
May 23, 2016
1.101
111
  • Magicka
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • BATTLETECH
  • Surviving Mars
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • BATTLETECH: Flashpoint
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Magicka 2
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Crusader Kings II
possibly for the early boost, but you cant ditch syncretic civic later and it will always occupy a civic slot
So? It gives you the strong proles right off the bat. If you're going for that build, I'd say it's the most efficient way to go about it. I find it unlikely that I will dramatically reverse any core civics in that kind of empire...
 

faljen_isus

Captain
6 Badges
Sep 27, 2016
473
145
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Crusader Kings II
So? It gives you the strong proles right off the bat. If you're going for that build, I'd say it's the most efficient way to go about it. I find it unlikely that I will dramatically reverse any core civics in that kind of empire...

you sure about strong proles? if so, then i do have to agree that it is the best start, since i wanst aware of that fact
 

Emraldis

Colonel
41 Badges
May 23, 2016
1.101
111
  • Magicka
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • BATTLETECH
  • Surviving Mars
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • BATTLETECH: Flashpoint
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Magicka 2
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Crusader Kings II
you sure about strong proles? if so, then i do have to agree that it is the best start, since i wanst aware of that fact
I'll check to make sure, one moment.

EDIT: Found it:
Syncretic Evolution: Your species evolved along with another, subservient species. A second species is randomly generated on your homeworld replacing some of your primary species' Pops. They always have the Proles (rebalanced in Banks) and Strong traits, making them excellent soldiers and workers but less ideal for intellectual pursuits. This Civic provides no additional benefits and cannot be removed once picked.