NOT A BUG: WaD: Galleys and adjacent sea zones

[Owen]

Galleys and adjacent sea zones

I'm in the middle of a game as Atjeh, and since I'm running DP sliders at full aristocracy and mostly naval, warships are quite expensive and galleys are cheap.

Galleys are extremely effective at low naval tech, and hence are very effective in the Med.

However, as I now have all the necessary adjacent land provinces, I can now send my galleys from Bombay to Hanoi without fearing attrition. Personally, I wouldn't want to take a rowing boat through the Straits of Johore, but the game doesn't seem to mind.

Seems to me this is just a bit stupid. The answer is for the galley attrition rate on open ocean to apply even in sea zones adjacent to your controlled provinces. After all, the problem is weather, not supplies.

The workaround is to set a house rule to only use galleys where you're supposed to, but it's just too tempting.

 

[AndrewT]

This would be a design issue and not a bug - working as designed - and so will not be changed, as Paradox have said only bugfixes will be considered after 1.05. Sorry.

 

[Owen]

Thanks Andrew, thought you might say that.

 

[unmerged(6147)]

Originally posted by AndrewT
This would be a design issue and not a bug - working as designed - and so will not be changed, as Paradox have said only bugfixes will be considered after 1.05. Sorry.

Sorry AndrewT. I don't agree. I have also spotted this bug.

In fact, the manual (English version) says on page 17

"Galleys should be kept in the Baltic Sea, the Mediterranean, the Red Sea, the Persian Gulf or the Black Sea, as this ship type is less useful on the open sea..."

(IIRC the same was written in the EU1 manual.)

There is no mentioning of having it in sea zones adjacent to the coast (perhaps only your coast, I am not sure).

But perhaps the bug is in the manual If Paradox really meant that it was only on the really "open sea" that galleys were bad they should have said so when they made their apparently complete enumeration of the places were galleys are appropriate.

 

[Owen]

Well, I can confirm it is only in your seazones. Whenever I accidentally send my galley fleet around the north of Ajeh province, they lose about 5 ships.

So this should call for a different bug report, but as I'm on it already:

The seazone directly northwest of Ajeh province should be a seazone of Ajeh, but isn't. I'm not certain whether it is coastal or not, but it should be.

 

[AndrewT]

Originally posted by Daniel A
"... this ship type is less useful on the open sea..."

"Less useful" - no mention of susceptibility to attrition.

 

[AndrewT]

You mean the Nicobar Is? I can't immediately see how an ocean area is marked as coastal or not, but in fact it doesn't touch the coast, or only at a single point anyway. I suspect it is built into the map in which case it cannot be changed to a coastal area.

Similarly the shields on the ocean areas don't seem to be changeable, maybe they come from adjacency as well. If someone can prove me wrong I'll look into it further.

 

[Owen]

Originally posted by AndrewT


"Less useful" - no mention of susceptibility to attrition.

Well, if this is the issue, rather than attrition, I can confirm that galleys are extremely handy on the open sea. I have scarcely had a galley lost in action in many battles against Chinese warships, while their naval tech was about 5 levels better.


Nicobar Islands: I'll try to confirm the name of the seazone when I get home. I think it is an issue (and I think it exists elsewhere) since they must be coastal, as you have to go through the zone to go round the north coast of Atjeh.

 

[unmerged(6147)]

Originally posted by AndrewT


"Less useful" - no mention of susceptibility to attrition.

So what do you think Paradox tried to say? And why?

 

[AndrewT]

Well, it looks like you're right - the only difference is in attrition in non-coastal sea areas.

The areas mentioned in the manual are specified because they are the only ones supposed to be able to produce galleys (I haven't checked this is implemented). However there is no difference implemented between galleys in a non-coastal sea area in these regions and elsewhere.

I think the only issue here is that the Nicobar Is area touches the coast in a single point, and has to be moved through to get around the coast of Aceh, but is not marked as a Coastal sea area. AFAICS this cannot be changed.

 

[Owen]

Originally posted by AndrewT
Well, it looks like you're right - the only difference is in attrition in non-coastal sea areas.

The areas mentioned in the manual are specified because they are the only ones supposed to be able to produce galleys (I haven't checked this is implemented). However there is no difference implemented between galleys in a non-coastal sea area in these regions and elsewhere.

I think the only issue here is that the Nicobar Is area touches the coast in a single point, and has to be moved through to get around the coast of Aceh, but is not marked as a Coastal sea area. AFAICS this cannot be changed.

I can confirm that galleys can be produced in any port at all at the normal rate.

For the Nicobar Islands, I haven't got the game files in front of me, but I thought that the details of adjoining provinces is stored in a text file, adjacent.csv or something. I will have a look when I get home, though I'm sure you know better than I do.

 

[DPS]

Originally posted by Owen


I can confirm that galleys can be produced in any port at all at the normal rate.

For the Nicobar Islands, I haven't got the game files in front of me, but I thought that the details of adjoining provinces is stored in a text file, adjacent.csv or something. I will have a look when I get home, though I'm sure you know better than I do.

I think that that file just determines which provinces are adjacent to each other for movement purposes, and there is something else that marks them as coastal or not. But I could be wrong.

 

[AndrewT]

You are thinking of adjacent.tbl , which is part of the map code and done in an impenetrable format. Check out:

http://www.inferis.org/eu2/

 

[Owen]

I'd always assumed adjacent.tbl was penetrable by Paradox, since they have the original code and don't have to disassemble it like Inferis has almost done.

Though, I admit I was wrong in part as it isn't a text file.

 

[AndrewT]

Yes, of courese, but I was looking for a (text-file) fix that didn't involve Paradox, as they are fully occupied with HoI right now and are not doing any fixes to EU at the moment.

 

[Owen]

Originally posted by AndrewT
Yes, of courese, but I was looking for a (text-file) fix that didn't involve Paradox, as they are fully occupied with HoI right now and are not doing any fixes to EU at the moment.

That's fair enough. Thanks Andrew.

Can you confirm that the situation is:

No.1 Galleys are as just as "useful" all coastal provinces, not just the Med, Baltic etc. From what you say this is a bug, but a minor bug and won't be fixed, which I think is fair enough.

No.2 Nicobar Islands sea zone is next to coast but not coastal. This can be explained if the islands were uninhabited and the north coast of Aceh is stormy, made of steep cliffs or something. I've just looked at the website for the Andaman and Nicobar Islands Administration (now part of India). I'd be happy to volunteer to find out if the sea zone should be coastal, as long as Paradox cover my expenses.

Cheers

 

[AndrewT]

1. Yep. I'm not sure this is a bug (ie not WaD), just a difference in the game and the wording in the manual.

2. If you look at the Nicobar Is sea zone you see it touches the coast at just one point, ie one pixel. I suspect this is the core of the issue here, and indeed it may be intended as you say that there is no coastal sea area at that point, you are forced out of sight of land and thus get the attrition.

Go ahead and check, and submit your expenses when you get back.

 

[unmerged(7398)]

Originally posted by AndrewT
You are thinking of adjacent.tbl , which is part of the map code and done in an impenetrable format.

There is in fact an editor for this file available now, at http://home.broadpark.no/~havmoe/EU/Tanone.htm.