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unmerged(6935)

Captain
Dec 20, 2001
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Air Units Ignore Night/Rain

I hope this is a bug and not a feature! :mad:

Even the earliest planes seem to be able to fly at night/in bad weather etc.: *This is totally wrong! They should be grounded!!!*

This is nearly as awful as the uselessness of Carriers.
 
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Vulture

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Errr... I beg your pardon. I don't see why they shouldn't be able to fly at night. Technically, they WERE able to fly at night, just as you are able to walk outside at night ;) The earlier planes (early technologies) don't perform well though at night, which is most accurate.
 

unmerged(6935)

Captain
Dec 20, 2001
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Come on, this is ridiculous.

Effectiveness of Allied Air in Normandy was reduced to 50% or less *in overcast*. Anything worse than overcast, they wouldn´t fly. That was *1944*.

Yes, you could try to fly at night/in rain with the earlier planes, *just as you can try to bungee-jump without a rope*.

And the result should be exactly the same.

It´s not just 'they shouldn´t be very efficient'. They shouldn´t return. You can use the 'Disband' option, if you want to simulate that. :mad:
 

Vulture

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COME ON... Be a little rational. Being able to move them or fly them, represents the fact that you ARE TECHNICALLY able to fly. Flying at night with early models SHOULD incur severe penalties. But if you are dumb enough to fly out at night, you shouldn't be denied to do it for your stupidity :D
 

unmerged(6935)

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Dec 20, 2001
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Originally posted by Vulture
COME ON... Be a little rational. Being able to move them or fly them, represents the fact that you ARE TECHNICALLY able to fly. Flying at night with early models SHOULD incur severe penalties. But if you are dumb enough to fly out at night, you shouldn't be denied to do it for your stupidity :D

You don´t quite get me. I am not just saying you should lose them to the enemy. You should lose them, period. You should lose them when rebasing.
 

Nikolai II

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For pre-war planes I'd have to ask for severe losses for night/rain combination rebase (could be mostly org though), just as I would like to see a near total death ratio for the carrier planes making a sortie in stormy weather at night. (If/when carriers are functioning).
 

Nikolai II

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Originally posted by Munchkin
I´d say most. They weren´t build to land at night (or fly in bad weather). Most would crash.

That would be more up to the pilot and airport now? (Good lighting and fresh pilot with little stress).

Combat missions however..
 

Vulture

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I like the suggestion of ORG loss, early planes don't have high org anyway (because of limited air doctrines at start). So when the ORG drops below 0, they'll still start losing some planes.

So where do you draw the line between 'early' and 'other' planes? Tell we from which model on this penalty should be gone and I'll log it.
 

unmerged(6935)

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Dec 20, 2001
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This is probably a question for an aviation expert, but I´d say nearly all planes that were actually used in WWII should suffer that.

However, this rule change doesn´t solve the problem that I have seen the Ai losing thousands of planes attacking heavily AA guarded provinces in night and rain time and again... <sigh>
 

Nikolai II

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Well, sounds to me like there should be org-loss for night-time and/or bad weather flying for all planes (excepting night-fighters for night-flying malus perhaps).

It would encourage flying by day and nice weather, while not over-rating the damages done which should be much in the way of damaged landing gear and smashed planes (w/o much loss of pilots or crews).

Simply put, allowing you to do as you like, while still making a solid nod towards realism.
 

The Yogi

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Just to throw a log into the machinery here, the RAF and the Luftwaffe were regularily flying night raids by the time of the battle of Britain.

Sure, they didn't acomplish much, but I doubt they took heavy attirition just from trying to land, or that would have come to an end pretty darn quick. :)

And lets not forget the (in)famous night bombing attacks, first the Blitz and then thousenfold over Germany. Apparently the bombers did manage to land mostly...
 

Nikolai II

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Or war-tired crews evacuating to Sweden :D

Point taken, maybe some doctrine reducing org-loss that should be there for early planes.

It still doesn't cover inclement weather though.
 

unmerged(6935)

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Dec 20, 2001
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Originally posted by The Yogi
Apparently the bombers did manage to land mostly...

Strat Bombers are a special case. By and large, flying higher, built very sturdy and reliable. But show me when Tac Bombers or Dive Bombers :rolleyes: were used at night or in bad weather. Also, why is Night Patrol possible? They can´t see anything (or at least shouldn´t :rolleyes: ).
 

The Yogi

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Originally posted by Munchkin
Strat Bombers are a special case. By and large, flying higher, built very sturdy and reliable. But show me when Tac Bombers or Dive Bombers :rolleyes: were used at night or in bad weather. Also, why is Night Patrol possible? They can´t see anything (or at least shouldn´t :rolleyes: ).

No, certainly tactical bombers and divebomers would be utterly uneffective in poor visibility conditions, but the issue was if they would be able to land or crash in the attempt. I think that except in fog they would be mostly able to fly and land, only not accomplish anything worthwile while in the air.

Agree totally that aerial reconaissance in darkness/poor wheater should be a complete no-no. Darkness and weather should have dramatic negative effect upon aerial spotting ability.
 

Maximilian I

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there`s already a enhancement "bug", that asks for weather/day/night effects being more severe. however, being an enhancement bug, it can`t be counted as bug.
 

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Paratroop drops at night were pretty common, I believe the Norway drops in '40 were, and I know the Normandy drops were.

As for night flying, the introduction of airborne radar allowed flying at night or bad weather, ground based flight control radar allowed safe night landings.

IFF was invented in 1937.

The AN/APS-3 radar was in production in 1943, and had a 300 mile range and was utilized for blind night-bombing and Arctic flying.

Germany's big problem was ignoring the magnetron, so they didn't utilize microwave technology.

However, night flying was actually very common and very safe, and was fully functional in Germany in July 1940, even with their poor levels of research on the subject. They utilized the Kammhuber line, using Himmelbett stations to control zones of about 22 miles each, and 2 Würzburg radars, one to track the bomber and one to control the night fighter (which was actually a converted Junkers or Dornier). This was very functional until the RAF discovered the Window counter-measure.

However, Germany immediately reacted and implemented 'Night illumination'. This allowed day single-engine fighters to be used at night: Flak would be fired at no higher than 15,000 feet while the fighter flew with extended-range drop tanks at maximum height. Enemy bombers would fly between the flak and the fighters and thus be clearly illuminated.

Per the Lancaster Museum for every 100 bomber crewmen only 9 were killed on landing, and most were due to crippled bombers.

And surprisingly even tactical and navy bombers were effective even relatively early in the war (1942) even without the use of airborne radar. In an extreme example the Night Witches, a Soviet bomber regiment made up of women, flew any and everything they could get their hands on to bomb the Germans at night, including the P0-2 biplane, and were so effective that they received 23 of the 30 Citations of Hero of the Soviet Union given to women in Russia during the length of the war. They did not do any significant material damage in these dinky bi-planes, but night bombing should definitely cause some org loss:

Quoting Hauptmann Johannes Steinhoff, the commander of II./JG 52 who was awarded the Oak Leaves to the Knights Cross for 101 victories on September 2, 1942, wrote:

"We simply couldn't grasp that the Soviet airmen that caused us the greatest trouble were in fact WOMEN. These women feared nothing. They came night after night in their very slow biplanes, and for some periods they wouldn't give us any sleep at all."


In 1943 radar deficient Japan was so effective with night navy bomber attacks that the US Navy created the Night Birds squadron to counter-act them.

So, to sum up: Night bombing is realistic and fairly safe, but it can be argued that it should do minimal/zero strength damage at night and only Org loss. IMHO.

Why this knowledge does not help me pick up chicks I'll never know. :D