Norway in Vicky2

[Galleblære]

From the dev diary #2 it looks as if the situation will be the same as it was in Vicky 1, Norway being an integral part of Sweden. Now I realize that is an alpha screenshot, and might not be representative for what Paradox has planned for the game. However, if Norway is indeed not represented in the game, I urge the developers to take a look at the VIP project for Vikcy1, Norway is handled quite well there, as far as I remember. (Been several years since I played it though)

Historically, Norway caused all sorts of political incidents and struggled for equality in the union, culminating with near war in 1905, with armed forces on both sides of the border. Sweden backed down, and the union was over.

 

[finyou2]

A quote from DD2:

What? :wacko:

Norway have never ever in real history been an integral part of history.

From 1814-1905 Norway was an independent nation in personal union with Sweden. In other words the two countries had the same king, nothing more

Please read the thingy a the top of the page. It says this is the Victoria 2 forum not the history fourm. Thank you.

I have my doubts that we see any difference because Paradox is using Vic 1 history on Vic2.

But this situation was also in many other countries, such as Poland, Finland, Hungary...

 

[Galleblære]

A quote from DD2:



I have my doubts that we see any difference because Paradox is using Vic 1 history on Vic2.

But this situation was also in many other countries, such as Poland, Finland, Hungary...

I've been reading some of those messages now, seems to be a lot of confusion. VIP had Norway as a puppet under Sweden, that is perfect. That means the foreign affairs are mostly controlled by Sweden. But a puppet status would also much more accurately simulate Norways own parliament, army and growing merchant marine.

Vicky1 Vanilla was pretty strange. The rest of Europe was covered very nicely with events, but in Scandinavia you had this weird Swedish fantasy history, where Norway stayed loyal and happy under Swedish overlords, giving Sweden plenty of time and room to form Scandinavia, almost as if that was how history panned out in reality!

 

[unmerged(131989)]

I agree that Norway should be seperate. If the personal union between the UK and Hanover (for example) is represented in such a way, then so should Norway and Sweden (as well as all other circumstances).

 

[Kaiserschmarrn]

How about a compromise, Norway gets to be a puppet, but is only one province big?

 

[unmerged(131989)]

How about a compromise, Norway gets to be a puppet, but is only one province big?

Not exactly a "compromise"!

 

[Dragoneer]

i agree with the posters, norway controlled its own goverment under the swedish with its own constitution, the only real thing the swedish controlled in norway was the foreign policy, which makes vickys puppet system a perfect model for it. And since norway then is playable, maybe some decisions could lead norway to independence

 

[Tormodius]

IMO there should be some events for this union! For Sweden as the "playable" nation it would be fun if Norway made some noise during the game. Definately to get some drama when approaching 1905. However Sweden was in control until then, and thus Norway could be a satelitte such as in the VIP mod. It would make a fun game with Sweden i think.

So then a decision could be made to grant independance for Norway, a chain of events where Sweden ultimately have to either declare war or grant independance. Because this was the case. In 1905 Norway had mobilized an army, allthough inferior, but the Parliament had to have some back up for these claims. They were awaiting King Oscars decision and if it was negative they were prepared to fight for independance. Historically he backed down and became sad that Norway didnt want to be in his union. I think he had high hopes for Scandinavia, and he was very sad on his last days. Some people in that time feared the other outcome. War! So it would be cool with this as alternate history option and involve Denmark of course!

In the game (vanilla Vicky) I remember Sweden being slightly overpowered and perhaps a bit too easy, partly due to this integral union?
Because when playing with the VIP mod i remember Sweden to be much harder to play. And thus more fun! I always loved playing Sweden because of the challenges with Prussia, Denmark and Russia. Surrounded on all sides, with the goal of uniting Scandinavia! If im gonna play Norway i dont expect it to be "playable" or fun any more than Tannu Tuva or any other minor. But it could be fun to play around with minors at least if you get events! even if another overlord chooses the triggers some ahistorical things might happen so you get into wars you dont control etc. Kinda fun but i guess playing Sweden is supposed to me more fun hehe

 

[Galleblære]

In 1905 Norway had mobilized an army, allthough inferior, but the Parliament had to have some back up for these claims. They were awaiting King Oscars decision and if it was negative they were prepared to fight for independance. Historically he backed down and became sad that Norway didnt want to be in his union. I think he had high hopes for Scandinavia, and he was very sad on his last days. Some people in that time feared the other outcome. War! So it would be cool with this as alternate history option and involve Denmark of course!

The Norwegian army was about half the size of the Swedish, but it had newer equipment, and had already completed all its transition phases to a popular conscript army, with a well trained officers. Sweden were in the middle of a transition, where they were moving away from something called inndelingsverket, which roughly said that every four farms had to provide one semi professional soldier. Considering the fortifications and terrain in Norway, it would have been a very, very bloody war for Sweden. This certainly played a part when they backed down.

Yes yes, I know this isn't a history forum, but it sort of shows were Sweden were at in the era. A Swedish player with ambitions to unite Scandinaiva and take part as Great Power certainly should have their work cut out for them, and not have it all "given" to them as was the case in Vicky1. Afaik, all they needed to do in Viki1 vanilla is to give full support to Denmark when Prussia invades, and voila, you form Scandinavia.

 

[Zuckergußgebäck]

I agree; Norway should be a puppet of Sweden, which might - but doesn't necessarily have to (it is a game, after all) - go independent through a series of decisions.

 

[Galleblære]

I agree; Norway should be a puppet of Sweden, which might - but doesn't necessarily have to (it is a game, after all) - go independent through a series of decisions.

Of course, the players should be presented with various ways to affect or break the union.

 

[Fredgard]

Of course, the players should be presented with various ways to affect or break the union.

That is in the best interest of Paradox. Cause if I cant play Norway or brake the union I will not buy the game.

And about the map: I hope they have worked on the fjords and the coastal part of the map. They failed in HoI3.

 

[OHgamer]

if i had my choice I'd make Norway a satellite to Sweden from the start.

then have a decision for Norway to demand independence based on certain conditions (political reforms in Sweden opening constitutional question, pop CON among Norwegians hits a certain level, pop MIL in Norway hits a certain level, SWE loses a war, for examples). This would then trigger a SWE decision to either allow the union to dissolve or repress the demand.

Could be a repeating decision that could fire any time the union remains in effect and conditions are met.

 

[MAHak]

That is in the best interest of Paradox. Cause if I cant play Norway or brake the union I will not buy the game.

:rofl:

Lets hope for Paradox that not all nationalist thinks that way, if not they will have a hard time trying to sell the game in Poland, Belarus, the Baltic countries and so on. + all the former European colonies.

 

[unmerged(48056)]

Norwegian? Sorry sir, but I am mistaken and never heard of the term.
Oh, you mean the Swedes in the western provinces? No one gives them much trouble. They're just a bunch of country bumpkins who dress funny and talk a little weird, and do things like drink cod liver oil, but they're still Swedish.


Norwegian? Please... the word doesn't even sound real. It sounds just as plausible as there being Ruthenians, Bretons, Finns; et al

 

[Red_Communist]

if i had my choice I'd make Norway a satellite to Sweden from the start.

then have a decision for Norway to demand independence based on certain conditions (political reforms in Sweden opening constitutional question, pop CON among Norwegians hits a certain level, pop MIL in Norway hits a certain level, SWE loses a war, for examples). This would then trigger a SWE decision to either allow the union to dissolve or repress the demand.

Could be a repeating decision that could fire any time the union remains in effect and conditions are met.

+1.

Norway's going to be my first country I play as. xD I'll fight for independance if I have to. >;D

 

[Sebastian Jarl]

I really hope Paradox will expand the dominion/puppet system a lot. It would be great if different factors could vary between each personal union, and each puppet. A tickbox would decide how much power the dominant state really had:

Military access
Military alliance
Joint army
Capital investment(dominant power can build railways, forts, etc)
Constitutional rights(e.g. the dominant power can veto laws)
Executing power
High foreign policy(military and alliance)
Low foreign policy(Customs, immigration)
[Perhaps even an option for joint foreign policy, where both countries must accept any changes to the status quo]

This would allow the whole spectrum of puppets and dominions, from barely being autonomous, to a union in name only, which would obviously bring a prestige bonus to the dominant party and vice versa. Depending on the role of control, different amount of taxes would obviously be given to the dominant party.

It would be pretty neat to be able to raise troops in your dominions, build railways, and so on. It would also be pretty interesting to be able to decide which party will rule in the subject state. And of course, if the subject attempts to gain more rights, being able to answer differently depending on the state of your country: Accept, decline or demand a referendum. It would be interesting in reverse as well, as you'd have to time your demands correctly.

Now, this may seem like a lot of work for little gain, but consider how many nations this system could be used for. Norway, Iceland, Finland, Poland, Hungary, Ottoman empire, Ireland and the rest of the British white colonies, India. It could also represent a unified German Reich, much, much better, maybe even the African colonies.

What do you think?

 

[Tormodius]

and do things like drink cod liver oil, but they're still Swedish.

Haha, i actually got a bottle of that stuff right here! :rofl:
Most people hate it, but i like it. Anyway, beer is war better. And to say we are Swedish would be about the same as to say Englishman to a Scot. ;-) Well they are still in a union so I guess we could have been too, if history did swing slightly different.

 

[Galleblære]

I really hope Paradox will expand the dominion/puppet system a lot. It would be great if different factors could vary between each personal union, and each puppet. A tickbox would decide how much power the dominant state really had:

Military access
Military alliance
Joint army
Capital investment(dominant power can build railways, forts, etc)
Constitutional rights(e.g. the dominant power can veto laws)
Executing power
High foreign policy(military and alliance)
Low foreign policy(Customs, immigration)
[Perhaps even an option for joint foreign policy, where both countries must accept any changes to the status quo]

This would allow the whole spectrum of puppets and dominions, from barely being autonomous, to a union in name only, which would obviously bring a prestige bonus to the dominant party and vice versa. Depending on the role of control, different amount of taxes would obviously be given to the dominant party.

It would be pretty neat to be able to raise troops in your dominions, build railways, and so on. It would also be pretty interesting to be able to decide which party will rule in the subject state. And of course, if the subject attempts to gain more rights, being able to answer differently depending on the state of your country: Accept, decline or demand a referendum. It would be interesting in reverse as well, as you'd have to time your demands correctly.

Now, this may seem like a lot of work for little gain, but consider how many nations this system could be used for. Norway, Iceland, Finland, Poland, Hungary, Ottoman empire, Ireland and the rest of the British white colonies, India. It could also represent a unified German Reich, much, much better, maybe even the African colonies.

What do you think?

Excellent ideas

 

[HMAS-Nameless]

sweden was in an odd union with norway which makes it hard because people will always disagree. Norway had a government like a satelitte. BUT at the time the country was called the United Kingdoms of Sweden and Norway and acted in a similar way to the UK whilst the different regions had governments of their own they were still classified as one country. It was also similar to Austria-Hungary (also a common name for the nation at the time was sweden-norway) and acted similar to that as well so if Norway is gonna be a sattelite of sweden, Hungary, Croatia, Galizien and other parts of the Austro-Hungarian Empire would have to sattelites of austria as they acted the same way.