North Korea Mode

[yezhanquan]

Just this. Why should you be able to manage the troops of 500 holdings, but not their taxes?

I'm pretty sure if both taxes and levies are hit hard if you go NK mode, it will not be viable.

 

[GC13]

I'm pretty sure if both taxes and levies are hit hard if you go NK mode, it will not be viable.

That's the point.

 

[yezhanquan]

Funny how PDS only thought of nerfing the taxes, but not the levies.

 

[GC13]

Well, there used to be negative events that would fire if you were over your limit, but those were patched out for some reason.

Really it was only ever balanced for people going over the limit a little bit. Without those negative events, the only thing the penalties do is encourage you to go way over your limit if you're going to go over at all.

 

[unmerged(784233)]

This.

When you ask for a nerf because you say you have no self control, what you're really saying is that you want to control how other people play.

It may not be what you're intending to say. But it *IS* what you're saying.

Sandboxes are supposed to be *SAND* boxes.

Nerf all the sand away, and all you have left is an empty box...

I just recently started up CK2 again after playing a bit of PS4 (which came out, I think, the week of SoA - which I only got a week ago).

I never (to my knowledge) abused republics, and I only once ever had a duchy theocracy (and was confused, because it was the result of a count taking over a county and forming the theocracy themselves).

But I almost always make 1 duchy republic once I get big enough (basically once I'm a king and have my 2 duchies and start handing out others - the first one is almost always a republic).

So my current game (2nd one since starting up CK2 again last week) I'm in Ireland. I finally unify the island, and it's rather early in the game, and I have boats. So I start taking the little island areas, since most of the map (non-Norse) can't get there, and I have some boats. I take Mallorca and Menorca, and decide that'll be my vassal republic this game, and give a distant cousin the cities, and then a county, and try to give him the 2nd county and I can't (because next step was giving him the duchy and letting him trade his merry way and get me more boats early) because of the 10% rule (I was at 18 counties at this point - 13 in Ireland, these 2, and 3 others).

WTF?

Thank you abusers.

I don't think it's remotely unreasonable to unite Ireland (it's an island), take over another set of islands (and later in this game I took over the Corsica areas of Italy and Iceland), and turn it into a Republic. But now it's not possible.

The time it took me to fab the claims and get 2 more counties to give this guy his 2nd county (I set the republic up with him having only 1 of his de jure counties because I'd already usurped the duke title and couldn't destroy it, and had 2 already myself) was a royal pain with him constantly factioning things (do to him being unhappy I was holding one of his de jure counties - which was never my intention).

So please, Paradox, before you nerf something that people abuse - make sure your nerf makes sense for people who don't. Please.

 

[Murmeldjuret]

Why would one nerf NK-mode when it is entirely up to the player to use it? I think mercenaries and retinues need a major nerfbat, until they are, I avoid using them. I have never thought of NK needing a nerf? Why? Because it is a nonobvious exploit of the game mechanics that only the player would do, and it only has the effect of reducing the game to repetetive button clicks. It has no depth, no purpose, and gives no experience. I am the type of guy to like spreadsheets, but repetetive button clicks for no other purpsoe than exploiting game mechanics is not my definition of entertainment. It is kind of sad when we must deliberately avoid using game mechanics that automatically win the game, but those are still things that people like to use, and why should they be deprived of it?

 

[frolix42]

You are not developer, you have no idea what the developer want to achieve.

I have an idea it's a historical simulation of medieval dynasties incorporating feudalism, not an alternate history where you can implement North Korean style government.

Without nerfing NK-mode, player are still able to enjoy historical simulation aspect of the game to its very best. Nerfing NK-mode does not enhance historical aspect of the game at all.

In history NKmode wasn't a real option for a ruler, and it gives massive benefits that aren't realistic. Therefore it's a flaw in the design. If you want to cheat, open the console.

Don't use NK-mode or play with people use NK-mode. Please consider NK-mode as a abstraction form of appointment type delegation.

The bug can be totally avoided, and player are still able to use all game features.

I'd accept NK-mode as an abstraction form of appointment type delegation if penalties for it were realistic. If you're admitting it's a bug, what's your real objection to having it fixed? That people can avoid the bug < fixing the bug so it's not possible.

 

[Chevaresqye]

I'd accept NK-mode as an abstraction form of appointment type delegation if penalties for it were realistic. If you're admitting it's a bug, what's your real objection to having it fixed? That people can avoid the bug < fixing the bug so it's not possible.

Golden rule for programming: If the bug does not affect any game feature, don't fix it. Any flaw that can be ignored. should be ignored. Time should be spent on making change that really enrich the game feature, not dig up a completely ignorable flaw.

I play CKII as a historical simulation, and NK-mode never happens or affects my game. Nk-mode is like sunset invasion; if you don't want it happens, it won't happen. It is a waste off time and may open a can of worm.

I have an idea it's a historical simulation of medieval dynasties incorporating feudalism, not an alternate history where you can implement North Korean style government.

That is your idea, not developers' idea. Nerfing NK-mode does not bring any good to the game.

 

[anomanderus]

Dislike for NKM isn't to do with how other people play, I don't think. It is to do with feeling you are playing sub-optimally. With this exploit hanging there, it generates this nagging feeling in the back of your head that you aren't playing 'properly', that you are missing out on big rewards, or that the whole game-system is actually broken and you are just holding it together with your imagination.


That being said, there are still serious disadvantages to NKM, which have been described earlier in this thread. Even if you do avoid the negative events, it isn't a very efficient playstyle in reality. The levy numbers may be impressive, but everything else is terrible. For example, you will have to upgrade every single holding yourself, which is extremely expensive.

I think it does still need rebalancing somewhat. At the moment, the advantage of total military supremacy often outweighs the other problems, especially if you only go full NK for a short period of time and don't have to upgrade any holdings. This could be balanced out by introducing a levy penalty when you go over the demesne limit (sort of like the financial one). It is also in my opinion too easy to actually wipe out the vassals, and I quite like the suggestion that was made earlier about increased revolt risk, although that's a pretty harsh penalty in itself and it is probably not a good idea to have that at the same time as a levy penalty.



Personally I do sometimes purge all my vassals, but I always replace them soon afterwards rather than actually running the country like that.

But isn't replacing vassals dangerous? Since everyone ends up with a deeply low opinion of you after you remove all existing vassals from power.

 

[frolix42]

Golden rule for programming: If the bug does not affect any game feature, don't fix it. Any flaw that can be ignored. should be ignored. Time should be spent on making change that really enrich the game feature, not dig up a completely ignorable flaw.

I play CKII as a historical simulation, and NK-mode never happens or affects my game. Nk-mode is like sunset invasion; if you don't want it happens, it won't happen. It is a waste off time and may open a can of worm.

It's more accurately an exploit, since it makes the game much easier (and boring and repetitious)

That the developers have a policy of closing exploits is evident.
http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum...Ryukyu-AAR&p=16159651&viewfull=1#post16159651

So NKMode should be changed is part of the design philosophy of Paradox. They haven't got around to closing the NKMode exploit yet. Whether or not it should be a priority is could be debated since there are other bugs which hinder the gameplay of someone playing without exploits.

That is your idea, not developers' idea. Nerfing NK-mode does not bring any good to the game.

The developers idea for CK2 is of a historical simulation of medieval dynasties incorporating feudalism. Nerfing exploits is good. I'm just going to make these wild assertions.

I want a "Use Machineguns" decision in the game. If you tell me that you don't want it, I'll tell you that you should keep your hands out of my playstyle and just not use it. It is a sandbox, after all.

There is nothing not excellent about this. Who is to say that the "Use Machineguns" decision wouldn't be a part of the developer's vision of CK2? It's hard not to lapse into sarcasm when arguing against absurdity.

 

[Chevaresqye]

It's more accurately an exploit, since it makes the game much easier (and boring and repetitious)

That the developers have a policy of closing exploits is evident.
http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum...Ryukyu-AAR&p=16159651&viewfull=1#post16159651

So NKMode should be changed is part of the design philosophy of Paradox. They haven't got around to closing the NKMode exploit yet. Whether or not it should be a priority is could be debated since there are other bugs which hinder the gameplay of someone playing without exploits.



The developers idea for CK2 is of a historical simulation of medieval dynasties incorporating feudalism. Nerfing exploits is good. I'm just going to make these wild assertions.



There is nothing not excellent about this. Who is to say that the "Use Machineguns" decision wouldn't be a part of the developer's vision of CK2? It's hard not to lapse into sarcasm when arguing against absurdity.

Does not change the fact that the majority of players will not benefit from nerf of NK-mode. The long delay between the release of CKII and the emergence of NK-mode is a evident that there are only a very few players noticing this mode. Among those who know NK-mode, there are both like and unlike people. Therefore, fixing such mode will bring zero net benefit for player.

Unlike you, I don't make wild assumption about developers' philosophy, but game should focus on the final experience of players, not a flawless design philosophy. That is why developer should not wasting their time fixing a scratch at the bottom of a chair. In worst case, the pad they use to patching the scratch can make the whole chair unbalance.

 

[frolix42]

Does not change the fact that the majority of players will not benefit from nerf of NK-mode. The long delay between the release of CKII and the emergence of NK-mode is a evident that there are only a very few players noticing this mode. Among those who know NK-mode, there are both like and unlike people. Therefore, fixing such mode will bring zero net benefit for player.

Unlike you, I don't make wild assumption about developers' philosophy, but game should focus on the final experience of players, not a flawless design philosophy. That is why developer should not wasting their time fixing a scratch at the bottom of a chair. In worst case, the pad they use to patching the scratch can make the whole chair unbalance.

This is because the levy nerf and other changes in 1.10 made NK mode an attractive exploit. And we're talking about it now so people know about it, it's going to be an issue in multiplayer.

 

[frolix42]

I hate it whenever someone suggests revolt risk as a solution to anything. That does not make NK mode less viable, just more annoying. And it's already incredibly annoying.

High RR should scale to the degree to how far you're above your demense limit. When you're 5 above your demense limit you should start to get a small RR across all provinces. When you're 50 above your demesne limit you should get 100% RR in all provinces. This would not be annoying, it would be impossible to maintain.

You could say that NKMode works in North Korea! Well North Korea is relatively small and benefits from semi-modern telecommunications. An entire continent of deiverse cultures managed this way would collapse before 1453.

 

[Chevaresqye]

This is because the levy nerf and other changes in 1.10 made NK mode an attractive exploit. And we're talking about it now so people know about it, it's going to be an issue in multiplayer.

CKII's multiplayer is not suitable for competitive purpose , nonetheless NK-mode is a under optimal strategies at competitive level. If you clearly state that NK-mode is forbidden before starting a game but some jerks still use it, those people are really trolls. Those trolls will always ruins your game no matter there is NK-mode or not.

 

[Andaries]

This is because the levy nerf and other changes in 1.10 made NK mode an attractive exploit. And we're talking about it now so people know about it, it's going to be an issue in multiplayer.

Ck II should not be balanced around multiplayer its not a competitive multiplayer game like say League of legends. Ck II is single player oriented with multiplayer capability.

You want to fix the NK mode issue make feudal vassal attractive. If their is less incentive to manipulate the game like that its not going to be done. If you just plug that hole all that is going to happen is a new exploit that is probably worse then NK will pop up.

 

[iamjmph]

This is because the levy nerf and other changes in 1.10 made NK mode an attractive exploit. And we're talking about it now so people know about it, it's going to be an issue in multiplayer.

see the thing is NK-mode "exploit" has been here since launch... its been known on the forums almost as long as the game has been around. Paradox has not seen fit to "fix" this in all this time, which leads me to believe that either they don't see it as a problem, or its so far down on their priority list that SI was deemed more important.

And then when Pdox changed levies(sp?), a few people gave into temptation and used NK mode, and then jumped on the forums and started complaining about it. And some people who knew about it realised it was a way around the levy vs event troop/retinue issue(where levies were nerfed and ET/Ret's were not), and when people asked for advice, that was one solution offered(in most cases it was the only solution offered, as the alternative was usually along the lines of, " What issues, learn to play its super easy!").... I had never even heard of NK mode till the first NERF NKmode thread i saw, and I didnt know what it was till the 3rd or 4th, which just goes to show you people who think its a big problem are pretty much a large part of the reason its so popular.....


I would be all for more options to choose at the beinning of the game, which could include levels of penalties for going over demense... but I am firmly against hard coded changes being forced on me to appease some other player's sense of right and wrong.....

 

[boozermonkey]

Not sure what the big deal is. Play the way you want to, but then don't come crying on the forums that your bored and need someone to give you your blanket and pacifier because you got bored. I play the way I want to and when/if I get bored, I do something else or start a new game, or go play EU4 for a short time just to remind me how terrible that game is and how awesome CK2 is.

Stop the crybaby stuff.

 

[Arcvalons]

The thread was meant to imply that having vassals should be made way more attractive than it actually is.

 

[Chevaresqye]

The thread was meant to imply that having vassals should be made way more attractive than it actually is.

Then the thread should be named "Revert back levies system to pre2.0".

 

[unmerged(196495)]

I don't think any major changes are needed to discourage NK mode. Most people will probably stop using it, once they realize how shallow the game becomes after you've removed the aspect of managing vassal relations.

Nonetheless, I also agree that some slight changes to reflect the difficulty of managing a very large demesne may help simulate reality a bit better. Perhaps the chance of getting "stressed" could increase exponentially with the amount that one is over their limit.