Are we allow to play with North Caucasian countries like Kabardey, Adygea. Chechnya, Dagestan?? or it is goona be only Gerorgia.
North Caucasus
- Thread starter Adige
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Armenia has been in every EU game too~
The others, probably no; unless you mod them, probably only Armenia and Georgia.
The others, probably no; unless you mod them, probably only Armenia and Georgia.
I think the main problem is the big lack of information on many those countries / tribes, as well as the fact that the whole region above Georgia and bellow GH is unlike anything else in EU in terms that during the timeframe cultures changed every few years, or in other words people migrated all over the place. If you think that any of those countries is worth adding to the game, then i suggest you come up with its ruler names, religions, cultures, flag samples and so on, if you do find all that, then there would probably be no reason why not to include them.
And dont forget Circassia.
And dont forget Circassia.
Maybe these sourse lead them to some information.
http://www.circassianworld.com/new/north-caucasus/1185-history-of-northern-caucasus-by-v-nabatchikov.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Caucasus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasus_Imamate
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circassia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasian_War
http://www.circassianworld.com/new/north-caucasus/1185-history-of-northern-caucasus-by-v-nabatchikov.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Caucasus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasus_Imamate
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circassia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasian_War
They probably aren't in because of lack of information. The Nubian kingdoms of Makuria and Alodia should also be in the game, but there is very little information about them on the internet (or anywhere,) specifically in the EU3 timeframe.
I really dont like paradox's method for little countries. They add these little countries to big ones. But EU is exception rom other games. I hope we will see more little country.
Circassia alone is like 3 times bigger than Georgia's actual historical size, although i dont think it had nearly as much population since it was mostly steppe and hills and nomadic tribal people. Apart from that theres a bunch of countries that would be one province minors according to EU3 vanilla province sizes (tho if more provinces were added some would be 2 or 3 provinces in size).
Well sad thing from the new Swedish DD is the horrible EU3 borders for Caucasia, Georgia is conflated with Ciscaucasia. Can't see how this can happen, the V2 projection dealt with the area perfectly :/
spy the problem with the inflated part as you called it, is that you have to remember that those are the tribal areas we are talking about. There are no exact borders, so there are no exact maps with set lines etc. Historically this land between Georgia and Golden Horde in the north, was not owned by Golden Horde or Georgia, it was settled by a number of tribes, but the thing is, they migrated and moved around all the time, leading to change of culture very often (Circassians, Nogai, Ubykhs, Avars?, Tatars, Turkmens i think etc). I assume that whoever set things up in Caucasus for EU3, probably had that in mind, and instead of creating a new country (or a number of countries you would need to represent that area through time) they instead merged that Area with Georgia, since Golden Horde is already huge.
In my mod, after doing some wiki research, i set up a country of Ubykhia (OPM on the coast) and also country of Circassia (a few provinces), but the thing is, i only have to worry about one start date, 1399, if i had to cover the entire timeline, i have no idea what i would do (as the information is very scarce, and there are practically no maps at all, and i also checked some Russian sources since i can read Russian cyrillic).
In my mod, after doing some wiki research, i set up a country of Ubykhia (OPM on the coast) and also country of Circassia (a few provinces), but the thing is, i only have to worry about one start date, 1399, if i had to cover the entire timeline, i have no idea what i would do (as the information is very scarce, and there are practically no maps at all, and i also checked some Russian sources since i can read Russian cyrillic).
One of developers said that they haven't yet tuned certain (most) parts of map, so there is still hope.
Erm, no hard at all to have realistic borders. The Caucasian part of the Crimean Khanate is traditionally assumed to have had a border running along the Kuban-Egorlyk-Manych-Don rivers, so you can have a province there named Adygea. Cherson/Kaffa is extended to include the Taman peninsula and the area around Novorossiysk (Bata). A thin strip of coast from there to Georgia attaches to Abkhazhia (Jiqeti). Whatever is left bordering Astrakhan/Dagestan would be, for a lack of better name, Circassia.
Give those areas to the GH, Nogai or whatever, but this megaGeorgia in EU3 and CK2 is a huge eyesore that I hope won't make it to EU4.
Give those areas to the GH, Nogai or whatever, but this megaGeorgia in EU3 and CK2 is a huge eyesore that I hope won't make it to EU4.
Looking at the map again, it really looks like a rough-draw. The Mameluk Sultante is in control of all Mesopotamia (an Northern & central Arabia too, it seems)... Maybe they just haven't added in the tags for the countries yet.
No need for everyone to get their bonnets in a bushel.
No need for everyone to get their bonnets in a bushel.
I hope they add these kind of small countries in EU4 because playing with them is fun.
The area had very poor province density in EU3 (which is one of the reasons I think they gave it all to Georgia: They didn't want it to be a 2-3 province minor, but weren't willing to give it European province density). As I recall, it's 3-4 provinces between the Black and the Caspian Seas.
Giving any tribe in the region, aside from the Circassians, even one of those provinces would vastly overestimate their territory. Add on top of that the numerous migrations, and I think it's best to forget about including most of the tribes.
Circassian culture is the only one from the North Caucasus that definitely belongs. I'd say give them the western 1-2 provinces, potentially with their own tag, and make the rest of them Tatar and Golden Horde.
And definitely give Georgia/the South Caucasus more provinces. Compared to the north, it was densely populated and the heart of millenia-old kingdoms and empires.
Giving any tribe in the region, aside from the Circassians, even one of those provinces would vastly overestimate their territory. Add on top of that the numerous migrations, and I think it's best to forget about including most of the tribes.
Circassian culture is the only one from the North Caucasus that definitely belongs. I'd say give them the western 1-2 provinces, potentially with their own tag, and make the rest of them Tatar and Golden Horde.
And definitely give Georgia/the South Caucasus more provinces. Compared to the north, it was densely populated and the heart of millenia-old kingdoms and empires.
Worst case scenario they should just make the North Caucasus into a part of the Golden Horde. They were culturally more steppe nomad than settled Georgian, especially after the Russians started pusing more tribes south.
I doubt Circassia will be in (which is sad), nor Kartli or Kachetia (both independent in the mids 1400s) nor the Dagestani minor states. Some of them will probably turn up in mods though. The problem with the whole Caucasus area is that there were loads of really minor states there. Even more eminent since the balkanization of Georgia towards the end part of the 1400s of course can't happen (would need loads of Georgian revolters and more Georgian provinces that the are can be given due to balance issues),
Why would giving more provinces to Georgia result in balance issues? In real life, Georgia was independent until the early 1800s, while it never even makes it close to the end date in vanilla EU3.
Province density is, however, essentially tied to player/developer interest, and the Caucasus doesn't do very well in that field. I think that's the only argument against giving the area province density on par with parts of Europe.
Province density is, however, essentially tied to player/developer interest, and the Caucasus doesn't do very well in that field. I think that's the only argument against giving the area province density on par with parts of Europe.
In EU3 with AI its basically either or, there is no option of peaceful coexistence. You gotta keep that mind when you develop/balance it. So, and i assume, someone took a look at that general area, and concluded "well in this region we have 3 powers near by, Ottomans, Persia and GH. Ottomans are occupied with other side, GH is occupied with Russia and Eastern Europe, so Persia should be the one i want to dominate". From that point on you compare Persian number of provinces to the number of provs owned by everything around it, and then you end up with the number of provs Georgia has.
In other words, and trust me on this, giving country more provinces is one of the most powerful tools you can apply to change essentially not only the balance of power (regional) but also influence how the AI behaves. Number provinces in relation to other countries is one of the primary things that drives AI on their conquest (it determines threats, targets, alliances, open console with ` and type view_ai, hover mouse over AI country shield and youll see lots of AI information otherwise hidden from player). So its not that simple, giving one country more provs would most likely require giving more provs to countries around them, do that enough times and you end up with something like MPM mod i made.
Although, i think i remember we were told all these things (diplomacy etc) are being reworked for EU4, so none of these limitations i mentioned from EU3 might not apply. In that case, why t hell not, add as many provs as possible. The more the merrier.