Normandy before the Normans

[thekinguter]

Does anyone have information about the area of Normandy before the arrival of the Normans? Who did that land belong to, etc.. ?

 

[unmerged(236784)]

Does anyone have information about the area of Normandy before the arrival of the Normans? Who did that land belong to, etc.. ?

Yep. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Normandy

 

[thekinguter]

Sadly that doesn't provide me enough information. It mostly speaks of roman normandy and norman normandy. My question would be, who owned the land? Were there any counts of Normandy? Or were they part of the royal demesne?

 

[unmerged(75409)]

Sadly that doesn't provide me enough information. It mostly speaks of roman normandy and norman normandy. My question would be, who owned the land? Were there any counts of Normandy? Or were they part of the royal demesne?

The records where that was written down, were probably stored in the abbeys that the Normans burnt when they conquered the land. It wasn't called "Dark Ages" for nothing!

 

[Lord Tim]

Sadly that doesn't provide me enough information. It mostly speaks of roman normandy and norman normandy. My question would be, who owned the land? Were there any counts of Normandy? Or were they part of the royal demesne?

The Roman administration divided territory into Pagi (the plural of Pagus). The Merovingian and Carolingian kings didn't change that, at least not in France. At least under the Carolingian kings these were ruled by Comes, Counts. The Count of Bayeux was killed in the initial viking attacks, I believe the County of Rouen was granted to Rollo so I presume that existed then, but I'm not aware of any others without checking. The Norman Dukes seem to have altered the administration significantly, so their later counties may not be the same as the Carolingian ones. It's possible the Roman ones remained in existence, so the Notitia would be worth checking to see what it lists for the area.

 

[StephenT]

There were a total of 15 pagi in pre-Norman Normandy - which was known as the northern part of the Kingdom of Neustria back then. They were grouped under the organisation of the local bishoprics, as follows:

Archbishop of Rouen
pagus Tellau (Talou)
pagus Vimnau (Vimeu)
pagus Caletensis (Caux)
pagus Rotomagensis (Rouen)
pagus Vilcassinus (le Vexin) - not part of the diocese of Rouen, but claimed by the Normans anyway.

Bishop of Évreux
pagus Ebroicinus (Évreux)
pagus Madriacensis (Merey)

Bishop of Lisieux
pagus Lexoviensis (le Lieuvin)

Bishop of Bayeux
pagus Bajocassinus (le Bessin).

Bishop of Coutances
pagus Constantinus (Cotentin)
pagus Coriovallensis (Cherbourg)

Bishop of Avranches
pagus Abricantinus (Avranches)

Bishop of Séez
pagus Oximensis (Hiémois)
pagus Sagiensis (Séez - later Alençon)
pagus Epicensis (modern location unknown)
pagus Corbonensis (Corbonnais)

Each pagus (pays in French) would be ruled by a count.

The official title originally given to Hrólfr Gánger (Rollo) by Charles III in 911 was 'Count of Rouen', though he was also known as princeps normannorum, 'Prince of the Northmen'. It was Rollo's grandson Richard Sans Peur who first started calling himself 'Duke of Normandy', and got his court historian to posthumously give that title to his two predecessors as well to legitimise it.

The Norman dukes largely ignored the previous administrative structure, and gave out land to their followers as they saw fit - taking care to divide up everyone's holdings into smaller groupings than the old counties/pagi to avoid them becoming a threat to the Duke's rule.


Source: http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/NORMAN NOBILITY.htm

 

[thekinguter]

Thanks!

So we have an archbishop sitting in Rouen, a count of Bayeux and I've just dug up some info about the Rorgonids counts of Maine. There was also some kind of March.. the Norman March, which I haven't found much info about.

 

[Eusebio]

Do you mean the Vexin?

 

[StephenT]

So we have an archbishop sitting in Rouen, a count of Bayeux and I've just dug up some info about the Rorgonids counts of Maine. There was also some kind of March.. the Norman March, which I haven't found much info about.

Every single one of those places I listed in my post - the "pagus (whatever)" - would have been ruled by a count. Of course it's not always obvious from the Latin name what they'd have been called in French. The "count of Bayeux" who was killed fighting the Vikings was probably actually called the Count of the Bessin (comte du Bessin). Bayeux was the capital city of the Bessin, and the place where the bishop had his seat.

As for the Norman March and the Rorgonids, that gets complicated.

Under the Merovingians, Neustria was one of the main Frankish kingdoms. It covered the whole of northern France, from the borders of Britanny to those of Flanders. The early Carolingians reunited the Frankish realms, and Neustria lost its independence. However, it became the practice of many of the Carolingians to give their chosen heir a title - either Duke or King - and give him lands in Neustria to be a powerbase. They didn't give him the whole of the former kingdom of Neustria, but generally only the region between the Loire and the Seine centred upon Le Mans. Over time the name 'Neustria' came to apply only to that region, and it was used interchangeably with 'Maine'.

In 861 king Charles the Bald, grandson of Charlemagne, saw his realm was threatened by both the Bretons and the Vikings who were raiding Normandy. He decided to create a new defensive frontier in north-west France, to be called the 'March of Neustria'. Control of it would be split between two Margraves. Robert the Strong, Count of Anjou and Tours, was given the western half to defend against Britanny. Adalard, the royal seneschal, had the eastern half from Le Mans as far as the Seine under his control.

However, the Count of Maine, Rorgon II, resented having Adalard placed over him in the hierarchy. He rebelled, and allied with Britanny managed to defeat Adalard. Recognising this reality, in 865 King Charles dismissed Adalard and appointed the Count of Maine as margrave instead. Rorgon himself had died by that time, so his brother Gauzfrid took the title.

Modern historians refer to the two marches as the 'Breton March' and the 'Norman March' to tell them apart; however, from what few surviving records we have, it seems that people at the time just called them both "the marches of Neustria".

The Rorgonid family eventually lost control of the Norman March to other nobles, but it continued in existence until 911.

After Charles the Simple gave Normandy to the Vikings in 911, the Norman March no longer seemed as important. It was therefore abolished as a separate entity and the Margrave of the Breton March took over control of the combined provinces, henceforth known as the March of Neustria. This margrave was Robert, the Count of Anjou and younger son of the original Margrave Robert the Strong. Robert was also Count of Paris, and in 922 he would go on to overthrow Charles the Simple and become king of France himself, only to be killed in battle a year later.

Robert's son Hugh declined to take the throne, but as Duke of France ('France' here meaning the Ile de France), Count of Paris and Marquis of Neustria, he was one of the most powerful nobles in the kingdom. His own son Hugh Capet would go on to become king and found the Capetian dynasty.

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Or the tl;dr version; the Norman March wasn't part of Normandy. It was in Maine.

 

[thekinguter]

Wow, that was the kind of info I was looking for! Thanks a lot!