Norman-Byzantine Wars in Southern Italy

[EU3NOOB]

The Byzantine Empire by 1045 AD.

With there at least some talk of moving the playable start date from 1066 to 1043(and apparently everything in between) I thought it'd be a good idea to have a conversation on how to properly represent the Normans in Southern Italy.

 

[theKing1988]

At the moment i have given them one province (Melfi), the Northern coastline is set to fall in 1046. (This will need to be adjusted when we combine my timeline work with Aasmul's feudalization overhaul of Italy though, so it is subject to change possibly)

I also plan on giving them an alliance with Aversa and Salerno. And finally they should probably get some event troops to simulate their military muscles better.

Alternatively as flavour (and i haven't discussed this with Ziji yet) we could introduce an event to simulate the constant flow of Norman adventurers to Southern Italy that would read something along the line of "A company of Norman adventurers have recently arrived in Southern Italy seeking wealth and glory, and as a renowned Commander and Lord they have decided to offer you their services" and accepting their service would then give you some event troops. Just an idea to simulate the source of the Norman's military muscles better than the title and province setup is able to do on it's own

 

[EU3NOOB]

At the moment i have given them one province (Melfi), the Northern coastline is set to fall in 1046. (This will need to be adjusted when we combine my timeline work with Aasmul's feudalization overhaul of Italy though, so it is subject to change possibly)

I also plan on giving them an alliance with Aversa and Salerno. And finally they should probably get some event troops to simulate their military muscles better.

Alternatively as flavour (and i haven't discussed this with Ziji yet) we could introduce an event to simulate the constant flow of Norman adventures to Southern Italy that would read something along the line of "A company of Norman adventurers have recently arrived in Southern Italy seeking wealth and glory, and as a renowned Commander and Lord they have decided to offer you their services" and accepting their service would then give you some event troops. Just an idea to simulate the source of the Norman's military muscles better than the title and province setup is able to do on it's own

I think something needs to be done to represent the influence the Papacy had over the fortunes (and misfortunes) of the Norman presence in the area. For instance, the Norman invasion of the Balkans in the early 1080s. I find that the only difficulty in that war is in occupying the choicest provinces before the starting character dies and the war invalidates itself. Whereas in real life it was because the Pope begged for assistance against the invading Holy Roman Emperor, which then leads into representing the relationship between the Holy Roman Emperor and the Pope, which isn't easy.

 

[zijistark]

I think something needs to be done to represent the influence the Papacy had over the fortunes (and misfortunes) of the Norman presence in the area. For instance, the Norman invasion of the Balkans in the early 1080s. I find that the only difficulty in that war is in occupying the choicest provinces before the starting character dies and the war invalidates itself. Whereas in real life it was because the Pope begged for assistance against the invading Holy Roman Emperor, which then leads into representing the relationship between the Holy Roman Emperor and the Pope, which isn't easy.

Sure, but this is a separate topic, FWIW, unless you have any concrete suggestions upon how the Pope ought to influence the early (i.e., pre-1066) transition to Norman power in Southern Italy (and I'd be quite interested in that, esp. w/ any easy-to-digest sources like wiki if it's accurate).

However, it's my understanding that the Pope really only became (extremely) relevant to the Normans there _after_ they'd already gained a presence as warlords in the area. By that I mean that the Normans were going to come to Italy, regardless of what the Pope to had to say, in terms of future game mechanics.

Please don't throw tomatoes if I'm wrong!

 

[theKing1988]

Well the Papacy certainly had some influence in the long-run by legitimizing the Norman hold on Southern Italy after https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Civitate

The initial Norman takeover had been based on brute force alone and after 15 years of harrassing everyone and everything in the South, everyone was sick and tired of the Normans. Hence the reason for the Coalition at Civitate. If the Normans were to retain their lands in the long-run they obviously needed more than brute force

But besides that what EU3NOOB is describing sounds more like the defensive pact that the Popes and the Normans formed in the aftermath of the Norman takeover, when the Papacy realized that the Normans could be useful in the right situation and not just a nuissance.

But it is a bit hard portraying that pact being triggered in-game, and it's even harder getting the AI to act on it