Noob Question : taking the Rhineland

[Cynical Dreamer]

Quick question :

Should I and a friend, playing Britain and France in 1939 multiplayer scenario, decide to go full-on berserk and invade the Rhineland in 1939 while Germany invades Poland..

1. Would it be realistically feasible within the game to take control of vast swaths of Germany before it's main forces could react, especially if Britain was very reactive at the beginning of the war ?
2. What would the consequences of such a move be ? Should most of the Rhineland fall, wouldn't Germany lose much of it's factories and recruitment potential ? Would it be able to stage an easy comeback, or would such an occupation severely cripple the German war effort ?

I'm curious to get answers both from gameplay and historical perspectives. Anyone knowledgeable on the subject ?

 

[MonkeyFuzz]

From what I understand, unless other nations have been kicking the World Tension up, the Allied/British reaction to retaking the Rhineland should be pretty minimal. WT has to be up to a certain point to allow certain kinds of responses (like guaranteeing Poland).

To be frank, though, I'm not sure what the in-game response options are for Britain if you're playing historically and taking the Rhine in 1939 is very behind the chronology for when Germany did it historically. In 1939, again historically, you should be seizing the remainder of Czechoslovakia in the Spring and Poland in the Autumn.

 

[Cynical Dreamer]

Wait - to clear things up : I was referring to a 1939 scenario in which Germany attacks Poland in August, while Franco-Brit allies helmed by human players decide to take Germany head on.

 

[MonkeyFuzz]

Lacking a Sitzkrieg? That could go pretty poorly depending on what men and materiel the British can muster. I think France's strength in the scenario is mostly in defense and holding their position at the Maginot Line. As the German commander, you'd have to make your executive decisions about where to place forces.

 

[Mac Lazer]

Well, in real life, if the Allies had really focused their efforts on Germany, I think they really could have taken the Rhineland and held onto it. In September 1939, most of the Germany's divisions were in Poland at the time. In game however, Germany has been buffed quite a bit and they have a lot more divisions than they did in real life. So... Yes? I think it's worth a shot. It's what I'll be doing, anyways.

 

[Nicolas I]

In the last WWW stream, Daniel kept Poland fighting until January 1940. If France and UK forces Germany to divert some troops, that could help Poland survive a few weeks/months. Poland would most probably fall anyways, as well as France, but Germany would have lost a few weeks/months of production and some manpower. That could play a role later in the game if/when things turn bad for Germany as every little bit of equipment and manpower would be precious.

That is what happened in HOI3 when Germany took too long to conquer Poland and/or France. No immediate problem, but shortages of equipment/manpower later in the war.

 

[Sleight of Hand]

Well, in real life, if the Allies had really focused their efforts on Germany, I think they really could have taken the Rhineland and held onto it. In September 1939, most of the Germany's divisions were in Poland at the time. In game however, Germany has been buffed quite a bit and they have a lot more divisions than they did in real life. So... Yes? I think it's worth a shot. It's what I'll be doing, anyways.

Where has this been said, and what is the reason for it?

 

[Oddb@ll]

Of course 2 human players teaming up on an AI nation will steamroll it

 

[Victor Cortez]

Of course 2 human players teaming up on an AI nation will steamroll it

This.

 

[Mac Lazer]

Where has this been said, and what is the reason for it?

It wasn't really "said" as far as I remember, its just that its obvious. Watching the Www stream between Jakob/Daniel and Johan, Germany was able to make almost 200 divions from what I remember. Historically, there were only around half that many.

 

[LordOfWar16]

It wasn't really "said" as far as I remember, its just that its obvious. Watching the Www stream between Jakob/Daniel and Johan, Germany was able to make almost 200 divions from what I remember. Historically, there were only around half that many.

The game was still unbalanced. Infact, during the Germany vs UK campaign the factories actually got changed and were made much more expensive (4x as expensive if i recall correctly), resulting in smaller military industry growth and thus slower production of equipment.

It should also be noted that daniel used a little exploit against the soviet union and removed any support equipment from his infantry divisions, leaving them as barebone infantry divisions without artillery or anything else.

 

[Cynical Dreamer]

Of course 2 human players teaming up on an AI nation will steamroll it

Two NEWBIE human players. Frankly, considering how my first Stellaris ironman game went, I wouldn't overestimate myself.

But really, my question was : can Germany survive without the Rhineland, and how big a loss would it be for Berlin ?

 

[Lifthrasil]

Two NEWBIE human players. Frankly, considering how my first Stellaris ironman game went, I wouldn't overestimate myself.

But really, my question was : can Germany survive without the Rhineland, and how big a loss would it be for Berlin ?

Considering that the Rhineland contains a veeery big part of German Industry and population (= manpower and potential IC), I'd say: No.
If you take the Rhineland early and manage to hold on to it, Germany would fall sooner or later. The conquered Polish IC won't be able to compensate that.

 

[amalric de g.]

Two NEWBIE human players. Frankly, considering how my first Stellaris ironman game went, I wouldn't overestimate myself.

But really, my question was : can Germany survive without the Rhineland, and how big a loss would it be for Berlin ?

Depends on how you define Rhineland only the left side of the Rhine or also the right side. If France and UK holds both parts of the Rhineland than it´s game over for Germany.

The tricky part is, that you drive your army in a dangerous position, If the Wehrmacht is able to pierce your front and cut you off, than you two are in real trouble.

 

[Nicolas I]

This map is front 2007 modern Germany, the provinces (Lander) were completely different in 1939.

Generally speaking, Rheinland was referring to the left side. The Allied occupation zones after WW1 were mostly on the left side, though with some important cities on the right side and the Ruhr industrial region.

During the discussions after WW1, French Marshall Foch wanted the occupation of the left side to be permanent to have a good natural defensive frontier and to deny Germany of a starting point close to the French border.

This map should be more appropriate for the time frame discussed:

 

[Greybeard0815]

Historically if Germany lost the Rhineland they would also loose much of their heavy industry and access to the vast coal reserves there. What that means should be obvious.

It wasn't really "said" as far as I remember, its just that its obvious. Watching the Www stream between Jakob/Daniel and Johan, Germany was able to make almost 200 divions from what I remember. Historically, there were only around half that many.

I have different info. IIRC the Wehrmacht was structured the way Hans von Seeckt envisioned it in the mid-1920's and that called for an army of 192 divisions, which IIRC was exactly the number Germany had at the start of the war.
I may be wrong though.

 

[Nicolas I]

Historically if Germany lost the Rhineland they would also loose much of their heavy industry and access to the vast coal reserves there...

The coal of Saarland (or Saargebiet) was on the left bank, but most industry was on the right bank of the Rhine where Germany can put a strong defensive line even if outnumbered.

So it depends how far the Allies can push. As I previously said in this thread, every week/month in German territory deprives them of some resources, production and manpower that they will lack later when every little bit will make a difference.

 

[amalric de g.]

This map is front 2007 modern Germany, the provinces (Lander) were completely different in 1939.

Generally speaking, Rheinland was referring to the left side. The Allied occupation zones after WW1 were mostly on the left side, though with some important cities on the right side and the Ruhr industrial region.

During the discussions after WW1, French Marshall Foch wanted the occupation of the left side to be permanent to have a good natural defensive frontier and to deny Germany of a starting point close to the French border.

This map should be more appropriate for the time frame discussed:

View attachment 177978

Sorry i was in a hurry, so i picked the first map i found. The point was the occupation of the Rhineland. If France and the UK occupied the left side only, their pinned between neutral Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg and the rest of Germany thats not a good position.

The biggest hit for Germany would be the capture of the Ruhrvalley, so only taking the left side of the Rhine is a strategic blunder.

 

[Nicolas I]

...The biggest hit for Germany would be the capture of the Ruhrvalley, so only taking the left side of the Rhine is a strategic blunder.

I completely agree with you. But the question is are they able to advance far enough and cross the Rhine ?

And are they able to stay there afterwards (resist the german counter-attack)?

From that point of view stopping at the Rhine on good defensive positions may be a valid option. A bird in the hands is worth two in the bush.

But if the circonstances look good, yes take more land, industry and resources is warranted.

 

[KalZakath]

The question I would ask is what are your long-term goals? World domination? Eventual war with the Soviets? Watch out for what seemingly great moves early have long-term ramifications.

If you two are playing against the AI, it probably doesn't matter - you two should be able to crush Germany whenever you want to once you get the game mechanics down. If Germany is another player, though, you might need to watch out somewhat.

Weakening Germany early leads to ripples around the world. Do they pull off a Barbarossa, or do the Soviets see a weak target and steamroll them early on in '41, where you pick up the pieces? Have seen games in HoI3 where early inroads into Germany and other areas by the allies have triggered some 'interesting' choices by the Soviets that aren't really very good for the allies.

As far as HoI4 goes - not a clue right now what the AI would do with such a move by the Allies. If HoI3 is any indicator though, Poland has fallen in as little as 5-6 days - which, as another poster said, suddenly frees up that army to come rolling through any weak spots you have in your lines (or the lines of Belgium), so make sure your flanks are covered.