Non-sticky reminder about new Forum Toxicity Rules

[grandad1982]

Ofc, this is prime example of being a dick, but posts like this are already a rarity (i could be wrong as i don't read every section of the forum), but the thing is that you actually never know why any feature turned out bad. What you're supposed to write then? The harshest critique is usually on problems that was kind of expected (AI-related) or repeat again and again (like major bugs).

Repeat criticism of weak parts of the game should be fine, again just don't be rude.

"the ai is poor, it needs to improve". Fine, this is how you feel and you've said it in a way that isn't rude to anyone, no need to elaborate.

"the ai is poor and these are examples of why". Even better, especially if coupled with what you would rather see in those examples. If you find a mechanic not fun, you probably know why after all!

"the ai is poor and pdx suck at making ai". This treads a line, if in doubt don't.

"ai programmer is incompetent and should be replaced". This is toxic and clearly so. I have seen this on more than one occasion in the hoi4 forums.

In short your not expected to come up with ways to fix the game, though constructively worded feedback is always best. Just don't be rude!

 

[Madzai]

Idk what forum you're reading but I feel like every other time I check in on one of the multi hundred post dev diary threads or wizs Twitter teasers (which I'd like to be able to follow because I don't do Twitter) I jump in in the middle of some ass hat expressing his displeasure with the game. In let's say a less than tactful way. There's something we could use some more of. Tact. It's an old concept, not to popular anymore.

So "the a-hat" is bad for expressing his opinion in a bad way (and mean only this, not the trolling\clear insults\abuse) but you're a good guy and can call him names because of that he did. That's exactly the logic i'm worried about.

And about "tact" - most people prefer to post in a tone that is most commonly used on the forum in question. If you think posts lack "tact", it only means that preferred tone of communication is different from that you expect. And it doesn't means it's wrong or toxic by its nature, just different.

That's because they're quickly reported and removed.
Just a few days ago, one, removed, post was something like that "The devs don't even know how to make a game, so don't bother giving your opinion".

So you're agreeing or disagreeing? A bad post "a few days ago" on a forum with , probably, a more than thousands of posts each day is a lot or not?

 

[grandad1982]

Also one thing to point out. Use the ignore button! If someone pushes your buttons when you read them, hit ignore! It can seriously improve your forum time and reduces the chance of you lashing out.

 

[Borgratz]

So...does Wiz get banned from the forums then? I know you probably didnt intent to sound that vague, but the way its worded, some of your lead programmers tantrums would definetely count as "not trying to help the poster and overly negative". Also do I get banned now, because I wrote something overly negative at Wiz's work place? Or am I just voicing a concern?
Im okay with reducing toxicity and I assume the people actually handing out the bans will use these "rules" as general guidlines and combine them with common sense - otherwise 50% (Is mild hyperbole still okay?) of all posters will soon be banned - but boy could you have done a better job at defining whats okay and what isnt.
(What does overly negative mean? Dont you mean not constructive? I can hate a feature with a burning passion, but still write a constructive argument for why it needs to burn in hell. Oh..while we are at it. What amount of foul language is a problem and in what context? Can I still write fucking awesome? Can I say hell? Are we just talking direct insults towards people?
I really dont think you did yourself a favor with this one.

 

[Ganggreenkhan]

So "the a-hat" is bad for expressing his opinion in a bad way (and mean only this, not the trolling\clear insults\abuse) but you're a good guy and can call him names because of that he did. That's exactly the logic i'm worried about.

And about "tact" - most people prefer to post in a tone that is most commonly used on the forum in question. If you think posts lack "tact", it only means that preferred tone of communication is different from that you expect. And it doesn't means it's wrong or toxic by its nature, just different.


So you're agreeing or disagreeing? A bad post "a few days ago" on a forum with , probably, a more than thousands of posts each day is a lot or not?

You're totally right that you can't expect everyone to maintain your personal standard of behavior. You also can't fight the downward slope of civilization. I'm not gonna argue that it's a waste of time and energy to fight it.

You really mus'nt be seeing some of these post. They go beyond expressing dissatisfaction with an aspect of the game. It really boils down to a lot of ppl don't know how to interact respectfully. It's just a symptom of the culture we live in.

And yeah if you don't like a product and decide it's ok to express your dissatisfaction by personally attacking the ppl who make it without anything constructive to say..... then yeah imma call you names to... sounds reasonable

 

[Aldernut]

All the excuses being made for abusive behavior brings a phrase to mind, "battered wife syndrome "

I've been arguing respectfully, and it would be nice if you'd give the same in turn. It's not very nice to paint "the opposition" as people with mental problems.

 

[TheBeautifulVoid2]

And about "tact" - most people prefer to post in a tone that is most commonly used on the forum in question.

This is true; it's often called the "broken window phenomenon" or "bad apple phenomenon." People take their social cues from those around them. If those social cues are negative and aggressive, then it will encourage others to be negative and aggressive in turn. This can lead to a death spiral.

Surely this is an argument in favour of tighter moderation, to remove bad posts (or posters) so that they do not influence others to do likewise?

 

[Count Hasimir Fenring]

I'm normally not a fan of censorship but I'm okay with this. I've actually been a member of these forums since 2011 but the Paradoxplaza overhaul and Steam integration messed everything up and I ended up with two accounts and the younger one being integrated with Steam. Anyway; the point being this company has grown a lot since then and I've noticed a decline in civility among forumites which, while no doubt a natural result of the community's growth, is unpleasant. I don't like sifting through pages of people arguing in circles about nothing in order to find actual constructive discussion. Furthermore; while I'm not against questioning or disagreeing with the devs (I do so myself sometimes) I think the venom that is often directed at them is egregious. Hopefully this edict will have the desired effect.

If we're not careful this will evolve into the Bethesda Softworks forums which I was a member of for some time. Over there the devs do not deign to interact with forum peasants in any way and you're basically not allowed to talk about anything.

 

[Ganggreenkhan]

I've been arguing respectfully, and it would be nice if you'd give the same in turn. It's not very nice to paint "the opposition" as people with mental problems.

Then you miss the point entirely of my post. I'm serious when someone is abusive and you make excuses for their abusive behavior.... that is a problem .

There is no excuse for taking out your frustration on your fellow human beings... ever.

That being said maybe I'm being a snowflake because this is a hot bottom topic for me seeing as that not wanting to read the abuse ppl heap into the ppl who make my favorite game us the reason for me not coming here often

Yeah I'm mad . Ppl take it to far, not just here but on the internet in general.

Oh deer I'm swimming up stream again

 

[LeSingeAffame]

So you're agreeing or disagreeing? A bad post "a few days ago" on a forum with , probably, a more than thousands of posts each day is a lot or not?

That's one I caught. There are most definitely several of them each day, they are just deleted so quickly that I can't see them all.
They also tend to be more frequent around dev diaries, especially the ones which change existing features (once again, try to read the FTL dev diary, and tell me everything was perfectly fine and acceptable here)

 

[Madzai]

And yeah if you don't like a product and decide it's ok to express your dissatisfaction by personally attacking the ppl who make it without anything constructive to say..... then yeah imma call you names to... sounds reasonable

So basically: "I think the guy is a dick and breaking forum rules so i can call him names because i'm the good guy and Mods probably going to ignore my post. That's how things spiral out of control - the guy is angry and write a kind of borderline comment but still try to act "in terms". You write him a response calling him names, making him angry and provoking him for to break rules in his answer. He's banned. And you walk away like a "Paladin in shining Armour" you are. This is called "baiting", but sadly often ignored. Or used to force a close on a thread the "paladin" don't like.
Or you're speaking about posts that openly break rules? So that you'll get from calling a guy like this, who's gonna get banned anyway, names? Why you do this? To feel better? You're supposed to mark such a post for Mods and move along.

 

[Aldernut]

Then you miss the point entirely of my post. I'm serious when someone is abusive and you make excuses for their abusive behavior.... that is a problem .

There is no excuse for taking out your frustration on your fellow human beings... ever.

That being said maybe I'm being a snowflake because this is a hot bottom topic for me seeing as that not wanting to read the abuse ppl heap into the ppl who make my favorite game us the reason for me not coming here often

Yeah I'm mad . Ppl take it to far, not just here but on the internet in general.

Oh deer I'm swimming up stream again

Yeah, it is a hot topic. And per your own words, being mad's not an excuse for being abusive towards others. Generalising people who think differently as having mental problems is abuse.

 

[Jamor]

People responding inappropriately even to other violators will be treated the same as the initial violator. Let's let the moderators do their job before we freak out about maybes, folks.

 

[Ganggreenkhan]

Yeah, it is a hot topic. And per your own words, being mad's not an excuse for being abusive towards others. Generalising people who think differently as having mental problems is abuse.

I'm sorry if you took it that way. Making excuses for abusers isn't healthy behavior. Nobody can argue with that. I was just trying to point this out. There are several post trying to justify the reasons for abusive behavior. Several pages of post. Just pointing out that this is an abnormal thing. We should never be looking for excuses to justify abusive behavior. That's what the abuser wants you to do. It's the thing that allows abusive relationships to happen.

 

[Juwatu]

Except that Wiz won't be the one inflicting these sanctions

Well in that case less to worry

 

[Aldernut]

I'm sorry if you took it that way. Making excuses for abusers isn't healthy behavior. Nobody can argue with that. I was just trying to point this out. There are several post trying to justify the reasons for abusive behavior. Several pages of post. Just pointing out that this is an abnormal thing. We should never be looking for excuses to justify abusive behavior. That's what the abuser wants you to do. It's the thing that allows abusive relationships to happen.

That's a non-apology apology, but I'll let it slide.

I'd say there's a difference between making excuses, and trying to understand. You shouldn't allow others to tread upon you, but you should have empathy for their problems. It's a basic humanist stance, and one I earnestly ascribe to.

Assertive communication - confidence without aggression - can be of great help in resolving problems.

 

[TinyWiking]

I'm normally not a fan of censorship but I'm okay with this.

This has nothing to do with censorship, it has to do with maintaining a healthy forum community. If rules are broken the post is removed and poster infracted. This isn't different from any other forum and I want to emphasize that we aren't going to "censor" fans criticizing our games. The only time we will act is when it's done in a way that breaks the rules.

 

[Ganggreenkhan]

That's a non-apology apology, but I'll let it slide.

I'd say there's a difference between making excuses, and trying to understand. You shouldn't allow others to tread upon you, but you should have empathy for their problems. It's a basic humanist stance, and one I earnestly ascribe to.

Assertive communication - confidence without aggression - can be of great help in resolving problems.

You know I can't help but feel like you really haven't read some of the post that have brought about this new policy.

 

[Juwatu]

When you look at Paradox's past behavior they have been very easy going and there are some here, myself included, who would have been banned a long time ago were the same things said on other forums.

And the barbed comment is exactly what the new rules are trying to prevent...

Sorry I don't really understand what you mean with barbed comment
Just to clarify my (looking at you wiz) was a more or less due to the way Wiz handels things sometimes

 

[Jamor]

Sorry I don't really understand what you mean with barbed comment
Just to clarify my (looking at you wiz) was a more or less due to the way Wiz handels things sometimes

Wiz isn't a community manager. He's the Game Director. He's not going to be the one handing out infractions.