Non-sticky reminder about new Forum Toxicity Rules

[Madzai]

That's the difference between "This feature sucks and the devs are incredibly incompetent" and "This may be problematic for x reasons, here are a few ideas that could fix some of these problems"

Sorry, but i never saw a post like this, aside from, maybe, freshly created accounts or people who almost never post, but this one problem hit their nerve really hard for some reason.

"This feature sucks (or "is broken", because "suck" is kind of overstepping boundaries of another rules) as expected, because they still decided to leave the management of it to AI, and PDX games have a longstanding history of AI being atrocious at the game release and quite some time after". Too much or not? Or i'm supposed to add a solution to how the fix the feature (and maybe i already did that in another thread?) Or maybe i have to add some advices on how to fix AI?

 

[SolSys]

... zero-value trolling ...

Maybe this is not the place [and possibly I'm just too old], but what is a "zero-value trolling"?

To be clear, I know what trolling is, but not what the above means [Google isn't much of help either :/ ].

 

[grandad1982]

Sorry, but i never saw a post like this, aside from, maybe, freshly created accounts or people who almost never post, but this one problem hit their nerve really hard for some reason.

"This feature sucks (or "is broken", because "suck" is kind of overstepping boundaries of another rules) as expected, because they still decided to leave the management of it to AI, and PDX games have a longstanding history of AI being atrocious at the game release and quite some time after". Too much or not? Or i'm supposed to add a solution to how the fix the feature (and maybe i already did that in another thread?) Or maybe i have to add some advices on how to fix AI?

I would say that isn't toxic because it gives reasons (ai is poor) and isn't personally insulting. It really didn't seem hard to me, don't insult people! Even if your reason for not liking a change is "I think your making the game less fun for me" that should be fine. Just don't say "because your lazy, incompetent programmers, you've ruined my fun".

 

[Aldernut]

This forum is not an appropriate place for people to express their personal problems, nor are my staff an appropriate scapegoat for whatever is vexing you today. We're here to discuss Stellaris. On an anonymous internet forum, we will not and indeed cannot know everyone's personal emotional state or present crisis...the only thing members can be judged on is the content of their posts. That is what will be done.

There is no grand tyrannical plot or arcane mystery here; simply keep posts impersonal, focused on the game rather than people, and if you disagree with something, give reasons why that are not based on fiery emotions or personal attacks. It's the same standard that exists in all communication between reasonable adults. If you say "I don't like this game feature because it will affect my playstyle/because it would not be as ideal as my alternate proposal/because I don't think it's good for the future development of the game/etc, that's fair critique that we welcome. If you say "this feature is stupid and the Stellaris team is lazy/greedy/evil", you will be banned. No one needs that on top of the pressures of doing their job to the best of their ability.

It's simple and clear-cut. There's no need to really overanalyze it.

I entirely agree with this. You - as well as all posters - have the right to be treated decently.

What I'm arguing for is temporary bans instead of permanent ones. This gives people time and space to cool off, as well as gives other posters a good environment for discussion. The worst problems of permanent bans are mitigated away.

 

[myrsl0ken]

I have had posts deleted twice, both times were justified. The posts I responded to were infuriatingly stupid, but that doesn't give me the right to be an asshole. Keep up the good work.

 

[Ganggreenkhan]

Why are ppl having so much trouble with this? I'm mean obviously it's a problem that needs addressing. If you can read the dev diaries and think some of the stuff ppl say to the devs is ok.... well maybe we are just better off without you. I don't even follow the dev diary post for all the ppl who don't know how to act. Makes it kinda hard to keep abreast of the game.

You know it's the major reason I've made less than 100 post in two years. If I want to experience ppl being abusive on the internet I would get a Facebook.

 

[LeSingeAffame]

And if you come here, trying to get what happened out of your mind, and relax via what has been your favourite past-time? Then snap at people, because your nerves are wrecked.
What if this happens twice?

The thing is, we'll never know. You don't get to explain yourself. People aren't always super-people, and not all bad behaviour is intentional.

You already snapped once, and you still think it won't happen again ? That's your fault. You already have had a chance to see that your state of mind is not suited for this forum. Take a few days off, go see some friends, travel a bit, play some games. Everybody needs it sometimes.
But insulting ? Harassing ? Making this place you love so much a worse place ? You can do it once (or at least you'll have a first warning), showing that your behaviour is problematic. You might have a hard time, and that's alright, it happens. But if you keep doing it, when you've already been told, and already know, that it will bring a permanent exclusion from the forum, you kinda deserve it.
You knew that you were not mentally suited, which can happen, you knew that your behaviour was problematic, and again, that can happen, but if you still don't learn after that, you clearly never will.

Other people don't have to suffer because you're going through a hard time. We don't know you, we probably can't help you much, so you don't have to calm your nerves on us. There are other ways to do it.

 

[Madzai]

Just don't say "because your lazy, incompetent programmers, you've ruined my fun".

Ofc, this is prime example of being a dick, but posts like this are already a rarity (i could be wrong as i don't read every section of the forum), but the thing is that you actually never know why any feature turned out bad. What you're supposed to write then? The harshest critique is usually on problems that was kind of expected (AI-related) or repeat again and again (like major bugs).

 

[LeSingeAffame]

Sorry, but i never saw a post like this, aside from, maybe, freshly created accounts or people who almost never post, but this one problem hit their nerve really hard for some reason.

That's because they're quickly reported and removed.
Just a few days ago, one, removed, post was something like that "The devs don't even know how to make a game, so don't bother giving your opinion".

 

[Es57]

Sorry, but i never saw a post like this, aside from, maybe, freshly created accounts or people who almost never post, but this one problem hit their nerve really hard for some reason.

"This feature sucks (or "is broken", because "suck" is kind of overstepping boundaries of another rules) as expected, because they still decided to leave the management of it to AI, and PDX games have a longstanding history of AI being atrocious at the game release and quite some time after". Too much or not? Or i'm supposed to add a solution to how the fix the feature (and maybe i already did that in another thread?) Or maybe i have to add some advices on how to fix AI?

That's something I was wondering about.
From what I understand, a lone critics is toxic, but a critics with a suggestion to solve the problem is fine.

So something like "Game mechanic X is bad" would be toxic, but "Game mechanic X is bad, it could be improved by doing this and this" is fine.

But what if said game mechanic X is something I have no knowledge about, and thus don't have any idea on how it could be improved ?

Let's take the example of the AI.

I may think the AI in the game is bad (not saying it is, it's just an example). But since I don't know anything about AI programming, I won't have any suggestion to provide on how to solve the problem.

Does that forbid me to express the fact that I would think the AI is bad ? (Again, it's just an example).

 

[Ganggreenkhan]

Ofc, this is prime example of being a dick, but posts like this are already a rarity (i could be wrong as i don't read every section of the forum), but the thing is that you actually never know why any feature turned out bad. What you're supposed to write then? The harshest critique is usually on problems that was kind of expected (AI-related) or repeat again and again (like major bugs).

Idk what forum you're reading but I feel like every other time I check in on one of the multi hundred post dev diary threads or wizs Twitter teasers (which I'd like to be able to follow because I don't do Twitter) I jump in in the middle of some ass hat expressing his displeasure with the game. In let's say a less than tactful way. There's something we could use some more of. Tact. It's an old concept, not to popular anymore.

All they are asking for is a little tact. You know so they can have a less hostile workplace. We're just screwing around here. These poor guys havta come here to eat. After reading some of the tiraids here I feel for them, I really do.

 

[Ganggreenkhan]

That's because they're quickly reported and removed.
Just a few days ago, one, removed, post was something like that "The devs don't even know how to make a game, so don't bother giving your opinion".

I saw that post. Who wants to read that crap? It was just some blowhard being abusive to the devs. Why would anybody want to read blatant abuse in their recreational forum? I didn't know it was that kind of party.

 

[LeSingeAffame]

That's something I was wondering about.
From what I understand, a lone critics is toxic, but a critics with a suggestion to solve the problem is fine.

So something like "Game mechanic X is bad" would be toxic, but "Game mechanic X is bad, it could be improved by doing this and this" is fine.

But what if said game mechanic X is something I have no knowledge about, and thus don't have any idea on how it could be improved ?

Let's take the example of the AI.

I may think the AI in the game is bad (not saying it is, it's just an example). But since I don't know anything about AI programming, I won't have any suggestion to provide on how to solve the problem.

Does that forbid me to express the fact that I would think the AI is bad ? (Again, it's just an example).

You don't have to know how to create an AI to see where it fails. It helps, but it's not needed.
If you can pinpoint where it fails, and can provide a save game, it would be enough for the devs to look at it (like if it's stuck in a loop).
If it makes poor decisions, like for its building construction, then you can, using only your knowledge about the game, say why it's wrong (like refusing to build farms when an empire has not enough food). If you can also add a "general direction" (like build more farms when you don't have enough food), then it's even better.

And that can be applied to other portions of the game, like the UI, balance, ...

 

[Jamor]

I may think the AI in the game is bad (not saying it is, it's just an example). But since I don't know anything about AI programming, I won't have any suggestion to provide on how to solve the problem.

It doesn't work like that. You don't have to be able to critique the code to critique a feature. If the AI does something silly, which it sometimes does in our games due to their complexity, you can say "well, the AI did X and that doesn't seem right. In this gameplay situation it'd be much better if it did Y".

The only thing we are forbidding, which we have stated clearly and repeatedly, is stuff like "the AI is bullshit and whoever wrote it should kill themselves." The reason you haven't seen posts like this is because we delete them when caught, but I assure you...they exist, and are the reason for this new policy. If you wouldn't feel comfortable saying it to my face, don't say it on this forum. It's simple.

 

[TheBeautifulVoid2]

In a perfect world, toxic people could be identified and removed before they post anything toxic. Sadly that isn't (yet) possible. In the meantime, this is probably a good policy.

 

[LeSingeAffame]

In a perfect world, toxic people could be identified and removed before they post anything toxic. Sadly that isn't (yet) possible.

That would bring other problems

 

[Derp]

And if you come here, trying to get what happened out of your mind, and relax via what has been your favourite past-time? Then snap at people, because your nerves are wrecked.

then you should click the X in the corner, go watch some tv or read a book or something, and calm down before logging back on

 

[Strigoi Tyrannus]

Why instead of permaban you don't issue a 1 to 6 months ban? That's enough to shove the trolls away and gives the person who actually wants to contribute but made one mistake too much/ was banned too lightly a chance to come back.

 

[LeSingeAffame]

Why instead of permaban you don't issue a 1 to 6 months ban? That's enough to shove the trolls away and gives the person who actually wants to contribute but made one mistake too much/ was banned too lightly a chance to come back.

The first ban is temporary, it's the second one (and at that time you should have understood) which is permanent

 

[Ganggreenkhan]

All the excuses being made for abusive behavior brings a phrase to mind, "battered wife syndrome "