Non-sticky reminder about new Forum Toxicity Rules

[kgptzac]

basically behavior that while not breaking other forum rules, contributes to an abusive, negative, non-productive atmosphere in the forums

I think what you mean to say is it's time to refine rule for posting on these forums. If you are saying "hey there are rules but we will punish you with our own definition of toxicity", then it's called censorship and it's kind of counterproductive to let everybody know that you're gonna enforce such censorship... because hey, that's toxic in my book

 

[Radene]

To be honest I've not insulted anyone. You've attempted to put words in my mouth in an effort to paint me as some kind of monster when, in actual fact, all I've done is point out that the timing of the changes - to me - is highly suspicious. There is literally nothing wrong with what I said. You've gone full-on mental breakdown on me like I killed your dog or something?

When would the timing not be "highly suspicious"? Is there any such point in time?

 

[Boygor]

When would the timing not be "highly suspicious"? Is there any such point in time?

Oh that's really easy. Say around 2-3 weeks after 2.0 comes out.

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

To be honest I've not insulted anyone. You've attempted to put words in my mouth in an effort to paint me as some kind of monster when, in actual fact, all I've done is point out that the timing of the changes - to me - is highly suspicious. There is literally nothing wrong with what I said. You've gone full-on mental breakdown on me like I killed your dog or something?

It's cute you think I'm having some sort of mental breakdown.

All I've done is point out that people like you who make posts like yours about what huge liars the devs must be are the reason this rule was put into place, and the reason we need it.

 

[Radene]

Oh that's really easy. Say around 2-3 weeks after 2.0 comes out.

I'd rather have a past example. The future is not yet determined, so we can't really build anything solid on that.

 

[Cragspyder]

I honestly thought that the word "disgusting" was due to the poster being Russian and English was a 2nd language? Unintentionally hilarious due to the severity of the word disgusting given the context?

Could be, but I've seen it used in the EU4 forums when people used long lines of single provinces or oddly shaped borders to fulfill game goals and achievements, in a way that is useful in game but would be utterly nonsensical in real life. They also use the word 'bordergore' in the same mock-horrified tone.

The important point is that someone else took it, out of context, as wording that could be deemed toxic or unhelpful and therefore worth an infraction, which is the sort of politically correct persecution that other users (the genuine ones, anyways) fear will result from these changes.

 

[Bersercker]

Fair enough, I understand you better now as you've explained your reasoning, so I can see what you're saying. I do think that people have got passionate and jumped into their respective camps, so maybe you have a point. I can even see I've posted something in that first one which is perhaps a little trollish.

On the other hand, one of those threads is titled 'The new borders are disgusting' which is quite a visceral descriptor that I think could provoke anger in some people who are fine with changes.

Yeah, i'm sure i too have made some questionable posts when i strongly disagreed with someone on the internet.

I guess the introduction of these new rules makes at least some sense too. Like, in the hindsight, some people accusing the devs of being incompetent in the FTL dev diary was totally inapropriate. Not because it was insulting but because all the reasons such decisions were made are known only to the devs, and the devs might be unable to disclose all the reasons because it would be impossible to do so without revealing sensitive information about the project. So they couldn't even talk back.

Ofc, if the 2.0 update generates enough outrage they might have to explain themselves anyway.

 

[Radene]

I'm not following you to be honest? I'm not aware of such a change on this forum before this change? Are you asking me to cite outside examples? I'm also getting a whiff of Terminator from your post...

No, I'm just saying 2 months in the future, one could still find a "highly suspicious" circumstance, and nobody can deny that because the future has not yet happened, so we don't know for sure there aren't going to be any.

 

[Sound Of Trance]

I think he wants you to give a past-tense example of when it would be a good time to roll out the new rule, since at any given time there are always questionable posts.

I'm not following you to be honest? I'm not aware of such a change on this forum before this change? Are you asking me to cite outside examples?

Edit: Also, a reminder to please keep it civil in here. You guys are always allowed to argue and discuss, as long as you do it in a respectful manner.

 

[Boygor]

No, I'm just saying 2 months in the future, one could still find a "highly suspicious" circumstance, and nobody can deny that because the future has not yet happened, so we don't know for sure there aren't going to be any.

Ahh, gotcha. Sure, it's entirely possible. The point I was making was that I find it suspicious. I'm not expecting everyone to agree with me. It's also entirely possible that I am wrong but that rarely happens so I feel fairly comfortable about what I said

 

[Crenickator]

I'd rather have a past example. The future is not yet determined, so we can't really build anything solid on that.

Just any time in the past where there hadn't been a large, controversial change to a game and a big dust-up between forum-goers about it. Like when CK2 Horse Lords or EUIV Cossacks came out. Maybe some disagreements, but mostly small potatoes and the meat of it all was "Oh boy, new content."

 

[Cragspyder]

Honestly you are like an ideal customer. Remind me to sell to you if I ever establish a business as I could literally tell you anything and you'd accept it at face value.

A decent sense of caution and doubt is probably healthy and perhaps Blackumbrellas is a little naive, but in contrast you yourself (and some others in this thread) should take care that paranoia doesn't cloud your perception either. Please understand that I mean this with respect.

As I mentioned before, deception and censorship on the scale being implied is not in Paradox's best business interests, for multiple reasons including the fact that it simply isn't worth the time and effort to coordinate.

 

[Boygor]

OK let me quote myself:

I don't believe the reasons cited for this policy. I think it's a "pre-emptive strike" against potentially dissatisfied users - who don't usually frequent the forums - in relation to the upcoming FTL change. With this policy in place potential dissenters can be silenced under the guise of retaining civility

Let me go into some detail on exactly why I think this.

Martin, when the FTL diary was announced conceded that it was "controversial" and boy oh boy it sure was The forum divided with a vocal minority (of forum users) getting, quite frankly, really annoyed with 1) the FTL change and 2) the "holier than thou" responses from the BlackUmbrellas of the forum to their (100% justified IMO) anger.

So, given the hostility and bad feeling generated, I feel it stands to reason that Paradox have introduced this change to policy in advance of 2.0 being released in an effort to prevent potentially angry customers - who were not part of the first wave (customers who do not read forums or keep up to date with the likes of Dev Diaries) - from venting on the forum and warring with the trolls from 2) above. I mean there are a lot of folks out there who do not read forums etc so I'd be surprised if there was no 2nd wave at all.

When/ If they do turn up it'll get explosive when the BlackUmbrellas shoot them down in flames of righteousness for *gasp* daring to have a dissenting opinion.

It's like sailors battening down the hatches before a storm hits. Sure, the storm might miss but... it might not

A decent sense of caution and doubt is probably healthy and perhaps Blackumbrellas is a little naive, but in contrast you yourself (and some others in this thread) should take care that paranoia doesn't cloud your perception either. Please understand that I mean this with respect.

As I mentioned before, deception and censorship on the scale being implied is not in Paradox's best business interests, for multiple reasons including the fact that it simply isn't worth the time and effort to coordinate.

Heh, I hear you. Like I said previously I'm a fairly cynical guy. I'm aware and honest about my own shortcomings though. I agree it's not in Paradox's best interests to do something stupid either but (video games) history is littered with questionable decisions being made to the detriment of the company in question.

 

[Sarius1997]

I really don’t get the paranoia that this would be used to shut down criticism. Paradox has shown that it is open to discussion in the past. But insults don’t get us anywhere, so they get banned.

 

[Madzai]

On the other hand, one of those threads is titled 'The new borders are disgusting' which is quite a visceral descriptor that I think could provoke anger in some people who are fine with changes.

This one, i'm quite sure about it, because it was made by a Russian member and i'm Russian myself, who sometime struggle with English too, is the case of "being lost in translation". "Disgusting" actually is, i duuno how to word it properly, a much more negative word than you expect from direct Russian-English translation. So i think it was supposed to be negative, but not that negative as people took it. Another case that shows that not everything is as obvious as it may seems about negativity and toxicity. And to make the matter worse people start to kind of attack the thread for being "visceral". While the thread OP who wasn't expecting that level of hostility (for reason above) started defending in the same matter as his "attackers" (because he think it was uncalled for). So, that's how things are spiraling out of control.

 

[TwiceAHuman]

Okay, since I can't be bothered to talk any sense into anyone, I'm going to just defuse the atmosphere by posting the TL;DR of many discussions these times take place... It almost reminds me of my university's atmosphere. Ah, good times.

I genuinely hope that this video offends no one. Especially no one who belongs to Adeptus Arbites...

 

[Crenickator]

Whelp, that's all been deleted. I guess my fears weren't unfounded.

 

[Cragspyder]

Whelp, that's all been deleted. I guess my fears weren't unfounded.

I was responding as well before it was deleted. You and I (and our third party here) at least have an example now of this system in action first-hand.

Honestly I feel that post had no value, other than as the case study we are using it for, and we're better off without it. Clearly you disagree.

No idea if a reprimand was involved as well, as it's not set in stone to get one i don't believe, but either way now that poster knows to change their behaviour.

 

[Zeelilus]

and 2) the "holier than thou" responses from the BlackUmbrellas of the forum to their (100% justified IMO) anger.

"I'm worried that this is just to clamp down on criticism, it isn't about me losing the ability to regularly insult people."
Proceeds to to use name of someone he/she's disagreeing with in place of unsavory types on the forum.

 

[Golub]

It is so refreshing to see a company protecting workers from abusive customers.