Non-slavery xenophobes and collectivists

[Fuu]

Is anyone planning on playing Xenophobe or Collectivist, but not using slavery? I'm wondering if it is viable, or if you would feel like you are not getting the most out of that ethos choice if you don't engage in slavery just for the slavery perks those ethos choices provide.

For example, I'm thinking of an isolationist civilization that doesn't want anything to do with other species. Naturally, they would be Xenophobes, but it seems like Xenophobe might not be 'worth it' without taking advantage of the slavery perks.

Thoughts?

 

[CptWilly]

Well, by definition you won't be getting the most out of it, but min-maxing in general isn't the most compatible with role playing. I tend to lean way more towards role playing with PDS games anyway, so I fully plan to take these ethoses when appropriate and expect that the other benefits will still make them feel like a "plus" even if slavery isn't the right choice for that run.

 

[Uhlume]

While it probably won't be my first species, I imagine my collectivist arachnids won't be using slavery very much, as it's not really part of their background (derived as they are from the Firestorm Armada setting), so the extra tolerance won't be put to use. I don't think it'll be too much of a penalty though.

 

[Krajzen]

I'd like to point at the weird and kinda worrying fact that from what we know Xenophobe ethos offers absolutely nothing except enslaving aliens.
Like, really nothing.
And to enslave aliens practically the only way is to invade their planets in mass slave wars. You aren't going to get xeno pops in peaceful ways like through migration because you are xenophobe.

So my question is: wtf is possible and viable ethos combo of Pacifist and Xenophobe supposed to do?
Either you wage slave wars and get bad penalties from pacifist, or don't wage slave wars and completely waste xenophobe ethos.

Can anybody prove my reasoning wrong?

But let's go further: AI empires get randomly generated ethos and some of them will end with xenophobe+pacifist. They also get AI personalities - I don't remember what are they based on, presumably ethos - so they will be some kind of isolationists or whatever. Again: they completely waste any benefits of xenophobe ethos as they avoid wars at all costs.

????

 

[Jerev]

I'd like to point at the weird and kinda worrying fact that from what we know Xenophobe ethos offers absolutely nothing except enslaving aliens.
Like, really nothing.
And to enslave aliens practically the only way is to invade their planets in mass slave wars. You aren't going to get xeno pops in peaceful ways like through migration because you are xenophobe.

So my question is: wtf is possible and viable ethos combo of Pacifist and Xenophobe supposed to do?
Either you wage slave wars and get bad penalties from pacifist, or don't wage slave wars and completely waste xenophobe ethos.

Can anybody prove my reasoning wrong?

But let's go further: AI empires get randomly generated ethos and some of them will end with xenophobe+pacifist. They also get AI personalities - I don't remember what are they based on, presumably ethos - so they will be some kind of isolationists or whatever. Again: they completely waste any benefits of xenophobe ethos as they avoid wars at all costs.

????

I think I can.
Ethos of pops can differ from the initial ethos. So it is possible that you have an open migration agreement with another empire and a planet full of lets say materialists who are not xenophobe. If your partner isn't materialist but hast some pops with that ethos they could move to your planet. Or you could exchange planets as an efford to tactically arrange your borders e.g..
But other than that it seems unlikely to happen peacefully.

As for peaceful xenophobe. Well you could just be an isolationist who just thrives to become wealthier without disgusting aliens...

 

[Uhlume]

I'd like to point at the weird and kinda worrying fact that from what we know Xenophobe ethos offers absolutely nothing except enslaving aliens.
Like, really nothing.
And to enslave aliens practically the only way is to invade their planets in mass slave wars. You aren't going to get xeno pops in peaceful ways like through migration because you are xenophobe.

So my question is: wtf is possible and viable ethos combo of Pacifist and Xenophobe supposed to do?
Either you wage slave wars and get bad penalties from pacifist, or don't wage slave wars and completely waste xenophobe ethos.

Can anybody prove my reasoning wrong?

But let's go further: AI empires get randomly generated ethos and some of them will end with xenophobe+pacifist. They also get AI personalities - I don't remember what are they based on, presumably ethos - so they will be some kind of isolationists or whatever. Again: they completely waste any benefits of xenophobe ethos as they avoid wars at all costs.

????

I wouldn't consider an isolationist, xenophobic, pacifist AI a waste of Ethos to be honest. If they get provoked into a war I imagine they'd go all out on slave collection from the species that was dumb enough to goad them into action. Being Pacifist probably means they won't make the first punch, but that doesn't mean they won't defend themselves aggressively.

 

[Puking Panda]

Maybe they should add a happiness bonus to all pops on a planet if the pops are all of the same species when you're xenophobic, that way you can make use of xenophobia without having to enslave alien species and you can make the choice to be either a xenophobic slaver or a xenophobic isolationist empire as well keep the more xenophobic species you conquer happy by putting them all on their seperate planet if your empire is of another ethos.

 

[Wulfram]

I guess Xenophobia would make your people support other methods of being nasty to aliens. Like, just killing everyone and taking their planet. And since you wouldn't have alien pops you'd be relatively stable internally.

Collectivists? I don't know. Though you get a reduction in food requirements at least, and though it doesn't seem as good as the Pacifist food boost it doesn't come with the damage to your military.

 

[Red_warning]

I'd like to point at the weird and kinda worrying fact that from what we know Xenophobe ethos offers absolutely nothing except enslaving aliens.
Like, really nothing.
And to enslave aliens practically the only way is to invade their planets in mass slave wars. You aren't going to get xeno pops in peaceful ways like through migration because you are xenophobe.

So my question is: wtf is possible and viable ethos combo of Pacifist and Xenophobe supposed to do?
Either you wage slave wars and get bad penalties from pacifist, or don't wage slave wars and completely waste xenophobe ethos.

Can anybody prove my reasoning wrong?

But let's go further: AI empires get randomly generated ethos and some of them will end with xenophobe+pacifist. They also get AI personalities - I don't remember what are they based on, presumably ethos - so they will be some kind of isolationists or whatever. Again: they completely waste any benefits of xenophobe ethos as they avoid wars at all costs.

????

You could uplift a species just to have them shipped off-world to other planets in your empire and serve as slaves. Deliciously devious.

 

[Fuu]

I'd like to point at the weird and kinda worrying fact that from what we know Xenophobe ethos offers absolutely nothing except enslaving aliens.
Like, really nothing.

Yeah, this worries me. The only benefit of choosing the xenophobe ethos is the alien slavery bonus, which might not be an activity that you are always able, or willing, to engage in, due to circumstances, roleplay and so on. However, it's hard to think of a bonus that would come with a dislike of alien species, whereas it is easy to give negative modifiers for this attitude, affecting diplomacy, trade and so on. It is a difficult ethos to justify choosing unless you are set on pursuing alien slavery, which is a shame from a game mechanics perspective, as it has a lot of potential for flavor.

 

[Drabant]

Xenophobe also makes purging easier (or perhaps it's even a requisite?)

 

[CptWilly]

Yeah, this worries me. The only benefit of choosing the xenophobe ethos is the alien slavery bonus, which might not be an activity that you are always able, or willing, to engage in, due to circumstances, roleplay and so on. However, it's hard to think of a bonus that would come with a dislike of alien species, whereas it is easy to give negative modifiers for this attitude, affecting diplomacy, trade and so on. It is a difficult ethos to justify choosing unless you are set on pursuing alien slavery, which is a shame from a game mechanics perspective, as it has a lot of potential for flavor.

There will be other benefits to each ethos outside of those listed in the tool tip. Each ethos opens up a unique construction option, unique techs, and unique event and edict options, etc. Still totally interesting and worthwhile for role playing, and definitely not a "dead" choice (i.e. one with no functional benefits).

 

[vyshan]

I am going to go without slavery for my empire.

The Raksasan Empire is going to be collectivist 1, Pacifist 1, and Xenophile 1 enlightened monarchy. I will not be using slaves for them, doesn't fit my fluff for them.

 

[Finnway]

One dimension of playing an empire like this that people aren't considering is how it effects empire-wide policies. Xenophobes restricts aliens in your civilization from having the right to vote or be leaders in your civilization. So even if you're playing a Pacifist - Individualist - Xenophobic empire that can't own slaves, Xenophobe will still effect your empire's internal structure.

It's also possible Xenophobe's bonuses have changed. We know for a fact the developers have changed the bonuses of at least one government type. Personally, I hope non-Fanatic Xenophobe will be a milder, less aggressive form of Xenophobe.
Maybe something like: +5% Happiness on racially homogeneous planets, & +25% War Tolerance against species from other phenotypes.
Instead of: +50% alien Slavery Tolerance, & cheaper claiming of Planets belonging to species of other phenotypes like it is now.

 

[linthras]

My first race will be fanatical materialist, collectivist, but I don't particularly want them to use slaves.

 

[Xeldrakka]

I will be playing a Collectivist Xenophobic species which will not adapt slavery, for the most part. While this lessens the power of each ethos's mechanics, slavery is not in keeping with the sort of creatures I intend to play.

Purging, on the other hand....