Non-Norse Germanic content

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    Real Strategy Requires Cunning
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Verenti

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OKay, so "non-norse" is a bad way of describing what I mean. What I actually mean is Germanic stories that are associated with non-Norse Germanic cultures. Specifically, I'm talking about Beowulf or Nilbellungensaga. Obviously, both of those stories have a lot to deal with Scandinavia, but I think it wouldn't be pushing it to say that they are primarily associated with Anglo-saxon and German tradition respectively.

My question is, what chances will we see content from those sorts of poems and stories and will we hear about Beowulf or Biowulfaz or Bjolf? Siegfried and Brünhilde or Sigurðr and Brynhildr?
 

Thure

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The Nibelungensaga is also Norse ;) The Nibelungenlied was German, yes. Both there is very much Norse contend in it too. In Norse it was named Niflung.

The Atlamál for exemple even has a Story around Gudrun (Kriemhild) as Atli's (Etzel) wife. An there brothers Gunnarr and Högni (Gunther and Hagen).

Since there is a Norse counterpart of this, I'm sure they use the Norse names. Sigurd, Brynhild etc.

For Beowulf... Maybe. But it has many Christian ideals in the story too. But I think Bjolf sounds nice.
 

TeutonicDane23

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OKay, so "non-norse" is a bad way of describing what I mean. What I actually mean is Germanic stories that are associated with non-Norse Germanic cultures. Specifically, I'm talking about Beowulf or Nilbellungensaga. Obviously, both of those stories have a lot to deal with Scandinavia, but I think it wouldn't be pushing it to say that they are primarily associated with Anglo-saxon and German tradition respectively.

My question is, what chances will we see content from those sorts of poems and stories and will we hear about Beowulf or Biowulfaz or Bjolf? Siegfried and Brünhilde or Sigurðr and Brynhildr?
I can't wait for Runemaster to come out as well!

But it seems like it is just bad "publicity" for Paradox to ever act like Anglo-Saxons/English, or "Germans" to be of the same religion as the Norse. Somehow the NSDAP in Germany destroyed all Germanic history. Weird, considering the Austrian-German Hitler was a staunch Catholic. :blink:
 

Thure

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I can't wait for Runemaster to come out as well!

But it seems like it is just bad "publicity" for Paradox to ever act like Anglo-Saxons/English, or "Germans" to be of the same religion as the Norse. Somehow the NSDAP in Germany destroyed all Germanic history. Weird, considering the Austrian-German Hitler was a staunch Catholic. :blink:

Ehh... Why would it be bad publicity? I never see someone here in Germany who thinks 'Nibelungenlied? Nazi!' or who thinks the Germanic mythology had to do with Nazis...

And you are not really true on Hitler... In the years before the war the NSDAP worshiped Widukind as protector of Germanism against the evil Charlemagne. Later they changed this and worshiped Charlemagne as German ruler over Europe. They just us whatever they like and help... Germanism, Catholism...
 

TeutonicDane23

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Ehh... Why would it be bad publicity? I never see someone here in Germany who thinks 'Nibelungenlied? Nazi!' or who thinks the Germanic mythology had to do with Nazis...

And you are not really true on Hitler... In the years before the war the NSDAP worshiped Widukind as protector of Germanism against the evil Charlemagne. Later they changed this and worshiped Charlemagne as German ruler over Europe. They just us whatever they like and help... Germanism, Catholism...
I wish that were the case. If you lived outside Germany you are taught about how the NSDAP/Germany thought they were going to uphold the "Germanic master race". I actually thought that was what Germans were taught as well, but obviously not. Outside Germany you are only taught about how Germany thought they would uphold the Germanic "master-race and rule the world". Probably just English speaking countries but I don't know for sure. Germany/NSDAP are the perfect "antagonists to many game and movies" in English speaking countries.
 

Thure

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I wish that were the case. If you lived outside Germany you are taught about how the NSDAP/Germany thought they were going to uphold the "Germanic master race". I actually thought that was what Germans were taught as well, but obviously not. Outside Germany you are only taught about how Germany thought they would uphold the Germanic "master-race and rule the world". Probably just English speaking countries but I don't know for sure. Germany/NSDAP are the perfect "antagonists to many game and movies" in English speaking countries.

We speak about the Nazis and the German master race, yes... But we don't connect them with the Germanic sages. The Nibelungenlied is (mostly) part about our German language school books. We don't have many lessons about this topic... BUt I can't remember that we ever connect them to Nazis that much.

But I can't say how Germanic mythology would give bad reputations... especially sine the NIbelungen sage is part of Norse mythology too.
 

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Beowulf is still fairly respectable, at least here in the US. It certainly offers several potential quest hooks.

Several plot points were adopted by Tolkien, which might actually be a bigger problem. People might see e.g. stealing a goblet from a tomb and waking a dragon as a Hobbit reference, rather than coming straight from Beowulf.
 

Ivashanko

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I can't wait for Runemaster to come out as well!

But it seems like it is just bad "publicity" for Paradox to ever act like Anglo-Saxons/English, or "Germans" to be of the same religion as the Norse. Somehow the NSDAP in Germany destroyed all Germanic history. Weird, considering the Austrian-German Hitler was a staunch Catholic. :blink:

Yeah... no major historian believes Hitler was a Christian *anything* The debate is over whether Hitler wanted to completely destroy Christianity and Catholicism in the long run or not, not whether he was a Catholic or not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Adolf_Hitler

I know it is Wikipedia, but it reflects what historians think about the issue very well. And the sources are good.
 
Last edited:

Pte Baldrick

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Yeah... no major historian believes Hitler was a Christian *anything* The debate is over whether Hitler wanted to completely destroy Christianity and Catholicism in the long run or not, not whether he was a Catholic or not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Adolf_Hitler

I know it is Wikipedia, but it reflects what historians think about the issue very well. And the sources are good.

The standpoint that he was an athiest and wanted to eradicate Christianity, or bring back the Germanic religion, has as many red flags on it than the Mark Regnerus study on homosexual parents...

In any case, this has absolutely nothing to do with the subject of Germanic myths and legends featuring in Runemaster. Take it to the History Forums if you want to talk about it.
 
Last edited:

Ivashanko

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There are as many red flags here as in the Mark Regenerus study on homosexual parents...

I know it is Wikipedia, but its sources are very good. Just looking at the quotes should prove the case.

This is just one of those topics that irritate me, since it is something the public tends to be so ignorant about despite expert opinion being firmly on the opposite side. I'm rather agnostic when it comes to religious beliefs, but I don't think blaming a religion for a person who we are sure didn't follow that faith is not a good thing.

The standpoint that he was an athiest and wanted to eradicate Christianity, or bring back the Germanic religion, has as many red flags on it than the Mark Regnerus study on homosexual parents...

In any case, this has absolutely nothing to do with the subject of Germanic myths and legends featuring in Runemaster. Take it to the History Forums if you want to talk about it.

Oh, he almost certainly wasn't an atheist- he probably wasn't a pagan either. He seemed to be some sort of agnostic theist. It'd be a stretch to label him as a true agnostic, but it could be done. Either way the point is that he was certainly anti-Christian, as was much of his administration.

But you're right about it being off topic.
 
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TeutonicDane23

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Quite strange that the Pope never excommunicated Adolf Hitler than huh? He considered himself a Catholic and so did everyone else in the world during the timeframe. And yet the Catholic church did not excommunicate Hitler for anything. This is highly off topic, I agree. But is it not quite strange that "you folks" think you can tell me "without" a doubt what Hitler's beliefs/religion were? :confused:

Just going out on a limb here, but I think most Austrian-German Catholics considered Hitler the "same" as them. But I am glad "made up hindsight" has been so conferred upon you folks. :ninja:
 

Ivashanko

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Quite strange that the Pope never excommunicated Adolf Hitler than huh? He considered himself a Catholic and so did everyone else in the world during the timeframe. And yet the Catholic church did not excommunicate Hitler for anything. This is highly off topic, I agree. But is it not quite strange that "you folks" think you can tell me "without" a doubt what Hitler's beliefs/religion were? :confused:

Just going out on a limb here, but I think most Austrian-German Catholics considered Hitler the "same" as them. But I am glad "made up hindsight" has been so conferred upon you folks. :ninja:

You didn't even bother to read his quotes, did you? They go on and on (and there are many not listed there) about his hatred of Christianity, how it made Germany weak, how he thought Islam was the better, more militant religion, how he planned to have no churches built in his new Reich, etc.

Though historians mostly seem to agree that the Pope was against Hitler, their seems to be a general consensus that he did not do enough to stop the Nazis. And it certainly doesn't speak well of German Catholicism or Protestantism (or Germans in general, really) that Hitler was able to get to power and do so much harm. That is the bigger picture, really.

In the end it doesn't really matter what our opinions are anyways, so lets let it lie. If you want to continue this conversation we can PM each other I suppose.
 
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TeutonicDane23

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I wish I was okay with spewing bulls*** everywhere like you. Quite hilarious actually. "Let me make something up quick. It might make my argument sound better." HAHA :rofl:
 

NikephorosSonar

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Our knowledge of German mythology is very shoddy as it is and it's not exactly the same as Scandinavian mythology.
 

Ivashanko

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I wish I was okay with spewing bulls*** everywhere like you. Quite hilarious actually. "Let me make something up quick. It might make my argument sound better." HAHA :rofl:

No need to be testy. I sent you a bunch of quotes signifying Hitler's general dislike of religion, but the best are the ones that follow: (from Richard J. Evans; The Third Reich at War; Penguin Press; New York 2009, p. 547- which is an excellent book aside, I would highly recommend it to anyone)

Hitler repeatedly stated that Nazism was a secular ideology founded on science, which in the long run could not "co-exist with religion"

Also...

What is ruining Christianity to-day is what once ruined the ancient world. The pantheistic mythology would no longer suit the social conditions of the period. As soon as the idea was introduced that all men were equal before God, that world was bound to collapse.

Pure Christianity—the Christianity of the catacombs—is concerned with translating the Christian doctrine into facts. It leads quite simply to the annihilation of mankind. It is merely whole-hearted Bolshevism, under a tinsel of metaphysics.



Then with the advent of Christianity, came the barbarians. Had Charles Martel not been victorious at Poitiers—already you see the world had already fallen into the hands of the Jews, so gutless a thing Christianity!—then we should in all probability have been converted to Mohammedanism, that cult which glorifies the heroism and which opens up the seventh Heaven to the bold warrior alone. Then the Germanic races would have conquered the world. Christianity alone prevented them from doing so.

It is possible that Hitler did believe in a strange, heretical form of Jesus (not so much as the 'Son of God' but rather as an anti-Jewish savior). Anyways it certainly wasn't Catholicism (or any other kind of Christianity):

Originally, Christianity was merely an incarnation of Bolshevism the destroyer. Nevertheless, the Galilean, who later was called the Christ, intended something quite different. He must be regarded as a popular leader who took up His position against Jewry. Galilee was a colony where the Romans had probably installed Gallic legionaries, and it's certain that Jesus was not a Jew.

These are all things he said to those for private consumption- which we should all agree is a more likely time for his actual beliefs to come out than during public speeches and rallies.
 
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Thiomay

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Ehh... Why would it be bad publicity? I never see someone here in Germany who thinks 'Nibelungenlied? Nazi!' or who thinks the Germanic mythology had to do with Nazis...

I's not necessarily associated with Nazis in Austria either but depending on the context Nibelungen stuff can be suspicions. If for example right wing politicians give all there children old Germanic names it sends a questionable message.

To say something on the actual topic: I don't think there is that much stuff known compared to Icelandic sagas. I actually think it's cooler to have a game based on one more or less consistent perspective than constructing a pan-Germanic world that definitely nobody ever believed in.
 
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SolSara

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Keep on topic, people! This is not the forum to discuss Hitler, take it to the OT-forum please.
 

TeutonicDane23

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Keep on topic, people! This is not the forum to discuss Hitler, take it to the OT-forum please.
Thank you. Even though I brought it up, SORRY BTW, I was getting ridiculous PM's quoting the infamous "table talks" which many believe are forgeries/fakes.

I understand that probably no non Norse Germanic content will be in the game because obviously the game is about purely Norse mythology. And also, the Norse for example have the same story as the Germans do in the Nibelungenlied. And also like another poster said. Beowulf is a fantastic story and I am sure it has some basis in history, but it has a terrible slant from the "christian" writers who wrote it.
 

Ezumiyr

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Isn't Beowulf a story about swedish people?
I'm sorry if anyone intend to use Beowulf for some kind of nationalism but it was deeply influenced by "Norse" stories. And I'm not sure that "Norse" mean anything by the way. I don't see why we could use only one word for so many different people while, for example, we need to use a lot of different ethnonyms to speak about the France of the same period... I prefer to say "Scandinavian", which is purely geographical. Because, you know, Scandinavian myths have probably been influenced by the Finn myths... And I would be happy to see some Kalevala into this game.

Just like in Tolkien's works by the way. In Europe, you can't imagine one mythology completely seperated from the others (even the Basque, with the Lamia...).
 

TeutonicDane23

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Isn't Beowulf a story about swedish people?
I'm sorry if anyone intend to use Beowulf for some kind of nationalism but it was deeply influenced by "Norse" stories. And I'm not sure that "Norse" mean anything by the way. I don't see why we could use only one word for so many different people while, for example, we need to use a lot of different ethnonyms to speak about the France of the same period... I prefer to say "Scandinavian", which is purely geographical. Because, you know, Scandinavian myths have probably been influenced by the Finn myths... And I would be happy to see some Kalevala into this game.

Just like in Tolkien's works by the way. In Europe, you can't imagine one mythology completely seperated from the others (even the Basque, with the Lamia...).
Sort of, Beowulf is the story of a Geat though. The Swedes basically defeated the Geats and incorporated them into Sweden.

Scandinavian does not equal Finn. Scandinavians are Germanic people ( and basically the founders, where all Germanic peoples came from) and Finns are not. Finns don't even speak a Indo-European language, and you should look up some of the latest genetic studies of Finns compared to their neighbors. But nice try BTW. Just your knowledge/understanding is quite sad. :(
 
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