Non-Ascentionpath viability

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Archael90

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Because they are thematically detached.
There is nothing that would logically separate them from pop ascension paths.
Having an "ascended" government is in no way excluding pop ascensions. The pop ascensions exclude each other, because it makes sense. Synth-ascended can't be bio-engineered, etc.
Synthetically ascended empire can still have lrganic pops, and develop super advance bio engineering for exaple for their organic slaves. They can also ascend psionically, because mind is over the matter. Everything can be tied and separated on lore perspective if You want.
Government ascension can exclude pop ascensions the same way those are separated from eachother - You put lot of effort, research, and Your governent capabilities into duch huge thing that You just cant make second one.
But ascensions excluding eachother is default.
 

SeraphAscending

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Synthetically ascended empire can still have lrganic pops, and develop super advance bio engineering for exaple for their organic slaves. They can also ascend psionically, because mind is over the matter. Everything can be tied and separated on lore perspective if You want.
The important word here is "can". I don't disagree at all here.
My point is that there is a good reason to make them exclusive, because stellaris is somewhat build on the assumption of a "main species" of an empire.
It's a gameplay abstraction, sure, but it makes sense in terms of gameplay, so i don't mind.

Government ascension can exclude pop ascensions the same way those are separated from eachother - You put lot of effort, research, and Your governent capabilities into duch huge thing that You just cant make second one.
But ascensions excluding eachother is default.
I mean sure, it's literally identical to your first part:
You can have bio-engineered super-pops that then set out to build the best possible government ever.
Logically, they exclude each other even less than different pop ascensions.

It's all a matter of game design, not realism. That's my point.
 

Archael90

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The important word here is "can". I don't disagree at all here.
My point is that there is a good reason to make them exclusive, because stellaris is somewhat build on the assumption of a "main species" of an empire.
It's a gameplay abstraction, sure, but it makes sense in terms of gameplay, so i don't mind.


I mean sure, it's literally identical to your first part:
You can have bio-engineered super-pops that then set out to build the best possible government ever.
Logically, they exclude each other even less than different pop ascensions.

It's all a matter of game design, not realism. That's my point.
So Your point is that everything can be explained and yet You have problem that its illogical to lock pop-based ascension paths from (example) government-based ascension paths...
 

SeraphAscending

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So Your point is that everything can be explained and yet You have problem that its illogical to lock pop-based ascension paths from (example) government-based ascension paths...
At no point did i state that there is a problem.
If they are not excluding the current ascension paths, i don't see how that helps.
Because they are thematically detached.
There is nothing that would logically separate them from pop ascension paths.
Having an "ascended" government is in no way excluding pop ascensions. The pop ascensions exclude each other, because it makes sense. Synth-ascended can't be bio-engineered, etc.
That was my statement. I have no idea where you are taking it from that i have an issue with excluding these ascension paths from one another.
I merely stated they are thematically detached. Which is true.
At no point did i say they shouldn't be mutually exclusive in the game.
 

Archael90

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If they are not excluding the current ascension paths, i don't see how that helps.
This statement means that You assume those paths should not be exclusive by default. My statement was that there is no reason why those should not be exclusive. Your next point was that everything can be explained which more or less confirm my statement that was contradiction to Your statement.
 

Wonoz

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I think they should be exclusive for the sole purpose of honing them in at the same powerlevel. If they were not they would be a balancing nightmare and probably end up severely underperforming in direct comparison with the existing Ascentionpaths.

So mutual exclusive is kind of mandatory if you want to have a compareable powerlevel. If this new ascentionpath would be as good as the others but not mutually exclusive you would probably just end up making double-ascentionpaths mandatory for anything that wants to be competetive
 

SeraphAscending

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This statement means that You assume those paths should not be exclusive by default. My statement was that there is no reason why those should not be exclusive. Your next point was that everything can be explained which more or less confirm my statement that was contradiction to Your statement.
Okay, lets end this discussion, because it isn't leading anywhere. It's simply a misunderstanding.

My original statement didn't mean they shouldn't be exclusive. It very specifically stated that NOT making them exclusive will not help. I was arguing that to even be relevant within the context of this discussion they must necessarily be mutually exclusive.
 

Sutopia

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If they are not excluding the current ascension paths, i don't see how that helps.

Also, if they are adding more ascension paths that doesn't help the OPs stated issue that ascension paths are somewhat mandatory, because they are too powerful to not take them.

Why they should not be excluding other paths?
And yes. OPs issue is not that ascension paths are mandatory, but that there is no alternative to those, since current ascension paths are against some specific roleplays

Because they are thematically detached.
There is nothing that would logically separate them from pop ascension paths.
Having an "ascended" government is in no way excluding pop ascensions. The pop ascensions exclude each other, because it makes sense. Synth-ascended can't be bio-engineered, etc.


sorry, i misattributed some statements to OP.
But the problem of pop ascensions being mandatory is still relevant.


Maybe it could be an extremely rare bonus to -x% empire size effect. A few other things that would fit thematically:
  • +% governing ethics attraction (not very special)
  • +% ethics shift chance (only in combination with increased governing ethics attraction)
  • -% edict cost / +% edict duration
  • +1 civic slot
  • administrators get an additional bonus (i.e. +1% worker output)
I think Archgel is in the wrong here. The non mutual exclusion was in reaction to some new ascension path proposed out of nowhere and doesn’t fit the discussion, not reacting to the existing ascension paths. Somehow Arch can immediately forget about the context and turn this into a straw man fallacy.

The issue is exactly about ascension paths being mandatory if you want to play somewhat competitively, or at least not just memeing. Adding an ascension path will not help since it will be as strong as existing ones and thus still be mandatory. The cause here is most of the ascension perks are too weak to justify picking over some of the dominant ones (arcology project, hive world, machine world are auto picks, for example), some aren’t even situationally useful (executives vigor, world shaper, eternal vigilance, just to name a few).

I think in the previous interview there were mentions about balancing ascension paths, I hope they also revisit the ascension perk system as a whole.
 
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Wonoz

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well. It was kind of about both. I think we can draw a line under:
-There are to many janky Perks which effectively disables dodging ascentionpaths without seriously gimping oneself.
-Solutions could either be to:
1) buff/rework/add ascentionperks outside the ascentionpaths
OR
2) offer a fourth mutually exclusive path that simply does not modify your pops but has a different focus.

To clarify: I would be fine with both as long its either but I strongly would prefer 2). So I am indeed guilty of proposing/pushing a fourth ascentionpath agenda.

From there on out this deteriorated slightly because opinions.
 
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Sutopia

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well. It was kind of about both. I think we can draw a line under:
-There are to many janky Perks which effectively disables dodging ascentionpaths without seriously gimping oneself.
-Solutions could either be to:
1) buff/rework/add ascentionperks outside the ascentionpaths
OR
2) offer a fourth mutually exclusive path that simply does not modify your pops but has a different focus.

To clarify: I would be fine with both as long its either but I strongly would prefer 2). So I am indeed guilty of proposing/pushing a fourth ascentionpath agenda.

From there on out this deteriorated slightly because opinions.
I don’t really see value in adding another path since it doesn’t address the problem at all. Bad perks stays bad and dead. Players are still working with 6 slots for anything not ascension path. Except for robots for some reason.
 

Archael90

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I don’t really see value in adding another path since it doesn’t address the problem at all. Bad perks stays bad and dead. Players are still working with 6 slots for anything not ascension path. Except for robots for some reason.
Problem was that mandatory modification populations is against some specific roleplays, but there is nothing that compensate not taking those. New ascension paths would adress that problem. If You have other problem, then start new thread.
 

Sutopia

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Problem was that mandatory modification populations is against some specific roleplays, but there is nothing that compensate not taking those. New ascension paths would adress that problem. If You have other problem, then start new thread.
If OP has a problem with pop mod Psionic is the easy answer since it takes no effort after ascending.


have a at least semi-viable gameplan that requires little to no species/population- management and just "let it be" and be fine.
It is a little of a stretch to introduce a gameplan that features the distinct lack of population-manipulation/organization but I really think that would be a nice one.

Psionic ascension checks every mark on the requirement. All you need is default all xeno living standards to assimilate and never worry about it.

The very reason why ascension paths are mutually exclusive is as stated due to fundamental pop changes. It’s hard to justify a non-pop change being mutually exclusive to pop changes.

If you need to argue about role playing you already care less about efficiency and hence would not care if ascension perk pick is competitive.
 

classl3ss

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If OP has a problem with pop mod Psionic is the easy answer since it takes no effort after ascending.




Psionic ascension checks every mark on the requirement. All you need is default all xeno living standards to assimilate and never worry about it.

The very reason why ascension paths are mutually exclusive is as stated due to fundamental pop changes. It’s hard to justify a non-pop change being mutually exclusive to pop changes.

If you need to argue about role playing you already care less about efficiency and hence would not care if ascension perk pick is competitive.
This is all fine, but the issue is what if you don't envision your people becoming psionic? There should be a way, as the OP suggests, to have a viable United Federation of Planets late game that doesn't have real mechanical deficiencies (IMHO).
 
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Archael90

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This is all fine, but the issue is what if you don't envision your people becoming psionic? There should be a way, as the OP suggests, to have a viable United Federation of Planets late game that doesn't have real mechanical deficiencies (IMHO).
Under such logic Paradox should develop a new ascension path for each RP empire you can think of? Doesn’t sound like a profitable business practice.
 

Wonoz

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----that makes no sense. at all. you seem to imply listening in on costumer suggestions for future content is bad buisness practice....
 
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----that makes no sense. at all. you seem to imply listening in on costumer suggestions for future content is bad buisness practice....

“Neil Gaiman” said:
Remember: when people tell you something’s wrong or doesn’t work for them, they are almost always right. When they tell you exactly what they think is wrong and how to fix it, they are almost always wrong
Yeah, pretty much. For me the suggestion is more like asking for power fantasy and custom made content, not what would benefit the game as a whole.
 

HFY

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Under such logic Paradox should develop a new ascension path for each RP empire you can think of? Doesn’t sound like a profitable business practice.
Yeah, pretty much. For me the suggestion is more like asking for power fantasy and custom made content, not what would benefit the game as a whole.

Before the Aquatics DLC, there were many threads specifically asking for aquatic portraits.

Do you think PDX lost money on that DLC?
 
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Incompetent

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For me, "ascension path" means spending 1-2APs on radically changing your pops. (Admittedly psi ascension has more of a focus on empire effects, but even then, narratively it's about your pops becoming psychic.) There could be alternatives to the existing ascensions that are still effectively ascension paths. But I think the basic question is, "What if I don't want to radically change my pops? Can't I get comparable power by leaving the pops alone and upgrading something else instead?" Well, maybe, but by deliberately abstaining from some aspect of the game, you can't expect to be automatically compensated in other ways.

Governmental reforms and whatnot are interesting ideas for APs, but I don't see any reason to make them mutually exclusive with ascension paths. Why would a super-advanced government require the pops to be normies?

The only mutually exclusive "path" I can see that would be a genuine rejection of the pop-based approach would be some sort of "automation path" that reduces your dependency on pops to make resources. (For an organic empire, it could include lots of robots too, but your primary species never *becomes* the robots, they just let the robots do most of the work.) Then it would make sense to be mutually exclusive with ascension paths: your pops aren't motivated to upgrade themselves because they are already living a life of leisure, there's no need to make themselves more productive.

A shift away from pops is already in the game to a limited extent with non-habitable Megastructures, especially the Dyson Sphere and Matter Decompressor. But those are limited in that you can only build one each of them. What if Dyson Sphere and Matter Decompressor, plus other exclusive megastructures, could be built repeatedly, but on a special AP path that was mutually exclusive with bio/psi/synth ascension? Alternatively, what if the automation path led to Fallen Empire-style buildings on your colonies that produce stuff without needing pops to work them? The challenge would be to a) make it balanced and b) keep some sort of pop management in the game so it doesn't degenerate into "one pop challenge"-type meme builds.

The problem is that ascensions are mandatory im terms of pop changes. And there should be more shades od grey here.
Assimilation should be a separated option, that can be set from free assimilation (only od egalitarians) where pops are happier, but assimilation is painfully slow, yet not mandatory, through encouraged assimilation, something like current one, to the mandatory assimilation that reduce happiness, make some other bad things, but pops assimilate much quicker, yet its forbidden policy for egalitarians.
This would solve much problems, both mechanical ones and rp.

The way the game handles synth ascension from an "ethical" standpoint is pretty weird. A Glorious Synth Master Race empire is honestly one of the most sinister forces in Stellaris; even if they're "Egalitarian Xenophile", they don't really care about any sentient life other than Synth life.

Necrophaging xeno pops into your own species? That's an atrocity (albeit not as bad as outright extermination purging).

Hooking an organic up to a computer, uploading their mind, using the file to program a Synth brain and then destroying the organic? Absolutely fine. I mean the pops themselves don't like it at all, they are clearly suffering, but at an empire level, nobody cares. (To be honest, I'm not convinced the Synth is really a "copy" of the mind of the original organic, e.g. regardless of their old ethics, after "conversion" they conveniently forget all that and subscribe to Materialist ideology. Maybe the Synth just retains the memories and skills of the organic, but not their personality.) Only the Spritualist Fallen Empire is concerned enough to make an official protest.
 
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Wonoz

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The challenge would be to a) make it balanced and b) keep some sort of pop management in the game so it doesn't degenerate into "one pop challenge"-type meme builds.
"chemical bliss Trade-value build looks so sick you guys :)"
But yes. keeping Pops albeit they are a upkeep-nuisance is not the bestest idea unless you got a sink what to do with them. And a Deathcult is just going full circle on questionable ethics.

But I kind of disagree that there would be a "need" for a well-founded explaination why perfecting society is mutually exclusive with the other paths. Sure it breaks out a little out of the "bodily evolution"-theme but other than thematic concern there is probably not much to worry about. There is not really much of a reason why the others are mutually exclusive as well.
We can after all gene-tailor, research psionic-theory and have fully-sentient synths without all at the same time without ever touching any ascention-path.
In game it just makes not as much sense to pursue these without their corresponding ascention-paths and once you do you basicly opt-out the others.

In other words the system as is already is pretty game-y so its probably a little pointless to go about meta-lore arguments. I agree that might be a thematic-issue from a design perspective but in the end that is also not on us to decide.