Non-Ascentionpath viability

[Wonoz]

I know this is a hot take but I personally think Stellaris could use more option to play on the "Beacon of Liberty"-Fantasy.
With Xeno-Compatibility beeing not /really/ an option due to performance, micro-hell and generall mediocrity compared to the regular Ascention paths
there is (in my opinion) a pretty distinct lack of viability for "inter-species" empires without either population control or forced body-altercation via ascention.

I do not want to push the envelope of disregarding efficient gameplay to hard here but I think also from a "new-player" perspective it would be pretty good
to have a at least semi-viable gameplan that requires little to no species/population- management and just "let it be" and be fine.
It is a little of a stretch to introduce a gameplan that features the distinct lack of population-manipulation/organization but I really think that would be a nice one.

Maybe this is a matter for one of the apparently upcoming traditions locked behind Ascentionperks as it would make quite a lot of sense to lock the other ascentionpaths as well.

 

[MordridBlack]

Beacon of Liberty has nothing to do with Xeno-comp

and Xeno-comp is an additive to the Genetic Ascension route, but isn't required in any fashion [hell many players actively encourage to not grab it due to said micro-hell]


most of the people who run it are either doing testing...or like myself, are crazy

 

[MK1980]

they'd have to introduce some big downsides to picking the ascension paths to make it a good option to not pick one.

perhaps if the faction system had more impact on the game, that could be a route. for example, egalitarian pops could severely object to any of the ascencion paths, so primarily egalitarian civs would stay away from ascensions. to compensate, they could get some other options. for example a policy that allows your pops to automatically and randomly self modify into synths, cyborgs, psionics or pick up the special gene traits (erudite, robust etc.) if you are in contact with civs that have unlocked those paths.

so you'd get some benefit from the ascensions other picked without spending points, but you wouldn't be able to follow any of the paths yourself without severe backlash (or restructuring your society into something very different from what it was)

i guess that could work?

 

[Wonoz]

Edit: to avoid confusion: this is a reply to MordridBlack not MK1980

I know and thats not what I was trying to say.
What I wanted to say is that if you want to play want to RP a ethically moderate empire and not force your enitre population into significant body-modification you basicly have no way to play the game without significantly gimping yourself.

In other words: I believe there should be 4th option to opt-out of pop-modification that fills the distinct lack of RAW POWER that the 3 Ascentionpaths have. It does not have to be AS powerful but I believe it should be there if not for RP-purposes alone.
This also does not HAVE to manifest as a rework for Xeno-Comp or strike an overtly liberal vein of self-determination but maybe just make your society view such extreme body-altercation as an affront to nature and offer an alternative in some way.

 

[DarkSafire]

Problem isnt lack of 4th "jack-of-all-trades" or "embrace your mediocority" AP, but fact that nearly all non-Ascention Path perks are meh or at best worth few free techs.

AP's are presented as empire or even playstyle defining when they are not, excluding non-Ascention Path ones.

If all AP's where OP no matter what you pick, you could make argument than in certain cases being good at few things are better than super focused on one.

 

[HFY]

World Shaper is +% productivity and +% happiness AND habitability for all species, which is very good to mix in with a Xenophile build.

Arcology Project gets you most of the above but for advanced resources (except +50% pop growth instead of +10% happiness).

Galactic Wonders + Master Builders gets you most of that good stuff but you need to build the Ringworlds to get it.

Those are not exactly an Ascension Path, but they can compensate.

 

[Wonoz]

I generally agree that terraforming; megastructures and arcologies offer a pretty cool workaround . In the end the up-front investment of the main APs IS also pretty significant anyway so its probably fine that they end up fairly strong.
But in the end I still wished there was a clear, distinct alternative that presents like: "if you do not want all that you can do THIS" which the other cannot just do as well.
That is why I would propose this to be a potential application for a reworked Xeno Comp rework that might open up a traditions-tree.
But yeah. Probably wishful thinking on my part.

 

[TrotBot]

I know this is a hot take but I personally think Stellaris could use more option to play on the "Beacon of Liberty"-Fantasy.
With Xeno-Compatibility beeing not /really/ an option due to performance, micro-hell and generall mediocrity compared to the regular Ascention paths
there is (in my opinion) a pretty distinct lack of viability for "inter-species" empires without either population control or forced body-altercation via ascention.

I do not want to push the envelope of disregarding efficient gameplay to hard here but I think also from a "new-player" perspective it would be pretty good
to have a at least semi-viable gameplan that requires little to no species/population- management and just "let it be" and be fine.
It is a little of a stretch to introduce a gameplan that features the distinct lack of population-manipulation/organization but I really think that would be a nice one.

Maybe this is a matter for one of the apparently upcoming traditions locked behind Ascentionperks as it would make quite a lot of sense to lock the other ascentionpaths as well.

Xenocompatibility is not as much of an issue as people made it out to be (if you don't have a toaster) and the pop rework helped fix a lot of lag anyways. I pretty much always run it.

 

[klingonadmiral]

World Shaper is +% productivity and +% happiness AND habitability for all species, which is very good to mix in with a Xenophile build.

Arcology Project gets you most of the above but for advanced resources (except +50% pop growth instead of +10% happiness).

Galactic Wonders + Master Builders gets you most of that good stuff but you need to build the Ringworlds to get it.

Those are not exactly an Ascension Path, but they can compensate.

None of those are mutually exclusive with ascension paths.

 

[HFY]

None of those are mutually exclusive with ascension paths.

That's true but I'm not sure why you'd say so.

If you're offering a contradiction or correction, could you quote where I said they were, or where that was requested as a criteria?

 

[Wonoz]

I am not trying to imply simply not picking an ascentionpath should be AS good as opting into them. They are supposed to be strong and a centerpiece of your civilization well....ascending. I just wanted to suggest that there may be space for one or two full fledged ascentionpaths that are mutually exclusive with the others that do not end in transforming your species.

I personally am more interested in one that fits the "egalitarian, personal freedom, democracy"-bill better than the others do. Because the existing paths kind of contradict that. I mean all of them do some sort of forced modification/assimilation.

But in the end there are more options.

 

[SEELE 01]

Space druids! After space elves and space dwarfs, we have finally come to this.
Any modification to pops are unholy and a violation of nature, somehow synergize with Idyllic Bloom, Catalytic Processing, Environmentalist, Anglers, etc.
And finally make "Ecological Protection" GC resolutions good.

 

[Archael90]

The problem is that ascensions are mandatory im terms of pop changes. And there should be more shades od grey here.
Assimilation should be a separated option, that can be set from free assimilation (only od egalitarians) where pops are happier, but assimilation is painfully slow, yet not mandatory, through encouraged assimilation, something like current one, to the mandatory assimilation that reduce happiness, make some other bad things, but pops assimilate much quicker, yet its forbidden policy for egalitarians.
This would solve much problems, both mechanical ones and rp.

 

[Wonoz]

I agree. If you could decide on how to handle species modification via policy-tab you are more than half way there already. Altough one would be very careful not to impede on the existing ascentionpaths to much. If you just straightup slap -20% happiness (for example) on all pops that get modified against their will would hamper almost all builds as they are right now. which would probably not sit well with quite a significant amount of players.

But yes. I agree

 

[SeraphAscending]

The only way ascension paths are not mandatory is if every other perk is on par with their strength.

Since it costs two huge opportunity costs of picking an AP they must be super valuable. (Which they are)
The problem isn't what's wrong with ascension paths, but what's wrong with everything else. Most Ascension perks just are not on par with them and so they feel mandatory.

Either weaken ascension paths or strengthen literally every other option. (There are only a few perks already on par with ascension paths)

 

[Archael90]

Or make some other ascension paths not tied to pops.
Like governent ascension path allowing for easier governments management, selection od leaders, more civics.
Or something else

 

[SeraphAscending]

Or make some other ascension paths not tied to pops.
Like governent ascension path allowing for easier governments management, selection od leaders, more civics.
Or something else

If they are not excluding the current ascension paths, i don't see how that helps.

Also, if they are adding more ascension paths that doesn't help the OPs stated issue that ascension paths are somewhat mandatory, because they are too powerful to not take them.

 

[Archael90]

If they are not excluding the current ascension paths, i don't see how that helps.

Also, if they are adding more ascension paths that doesn't help the OPs stated issue that ascension paths are somewhat mandatory, because they are too powerful to not take them.

Why they should not be excluding other paths?
And yes. OPs issue is not that ascension paths are mandatory, but that there is no alternative to those, since current ascension paths are against some specific roleplays

 

[Wonoz]

Like governent ascension path allowing for easier governments management, selection od leaders, more civics.

I like this a lot. Governmental Ascention makes a lot of sense in my book. Might as well materialize as better designations and boni to planetary ascention.

There are multiple threads complaining about the mediocrity of Planetary ascention as a mechanic....and its already in. the. name. So maybe this is it?
Straightforward, not to complicated and potentially powerful.

 

[SeraphAscending]

Why they should not be excluding other paths?

Because they are thematically detached.
There is nothing that would logically separate them from pop ascension paths.
Having an "ascended" government is in no way excluding pop ascensions. The pop ascensions exclude each other, because it makes sense. Synth-ascended can't be bio-engineered, etc.

OPs issue is not that ascension paths are mandatory, but that there is no alternative to those, since current ascension paths are against some specific roleplays

sorry, i misattributed some statements to OP.
But the problem of pop ascensions being mandatory is still relevant.

I like this a lot. Governmental Ascention makes a lot of sense in my book. Might as well materialize as better designations and boni to planetary ascention.

There are multiple threads complaining about the mediocrity of Planetary ascention as a mechanic....and its already in. the. name. So maybe this is it?
Straightforward, not to complicated and potentially powerful.

Maybe it could be an extremely rare bonus to -x% empire size effect. A few other things that would fit thematically:

• +% governing ethics attraction (not very special)
• +% ethics shift chance (only in combination with increased governing ethics attraction)
• -% edict cost / +% edict duration
• +1 civic slot
• administrators get an additional bonus (i.e. +1% worker output)