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Dark Knight

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Historical:

The American Colonies (1640-1792):
This would focus on the colonial struggle between France and England in North America and the Caribbean. The Netherlands would also be important (at least in the beginning) as would Spain. Also, if one or the other power becomes dominant in terms of numerous, populous mainland colonies, then these colonies become prone to rebellion.

The Rise of Prussia (1740-63):
Intended, naturally, to be played as Prussia, this would cover the beginning of the War of Austrian Succession to the end of the Seven Years' War. Austria, France, Britain, Russia, Sweden, Bavaria, and Saxony are all also major powers in this scenario.

The Struggle for India (1664-1792):
This focuses on the competition to dominate trade in India and Southeast Asia between Portugal, the Netherlands, England, and France. All four nations start in very different positions, with France just having founded its East India company. In the 18th century the Mogul Empire falls apart and land wars develop between European powers and their Indian allies.

'What-if':
Corpus Evangelicorum I:
Gustavus Adolphus isn't killed at the battle of Lutzen and instead leads the Swedes to victory over the imperialist forces. He would then survive as leader of a Protestant alliance of Sweden and various German states against the Catholics allowing for a very different finish to the Thirty Years War (and possibly, an even more powerful Sweden to emerge from it).

Corpus Evangelicorum II:
Oliver Cromwell's proposal of a Protestant alliance with the Netherlands is accepted. Instead of England and the Netherlands developing trade disputes that result in several wars, they cooperate against the overseas possessions of the Catholic powers, while France and Spain are still warring on the Continent.

A Prussian Alliance:
Great Britain, instead of making a separate peace in 1763 with Spain and France (and, incidentally, giving up important colonial possessions it had taken), makes a joint peace later in the year with Prussia. Thus, Britain retains Prussia as an ally when the American colonies revolt. This could result in a continental war involving France, Spain, and Prussia (and the Netherlands if it still goes to war), while lessening French assistance to the rebels.
 

Doomdark

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Corpus Evangelicorum I:
Gustavus Adolphus isn't killed at the battle of Lutzen and instead leads the Swedes to victory over the imperialist forces.

Interesting, although the effects of Gustavus' survival are hard to judge and simulate. It is indeed quite possible that Gustavus might have brought the war to a speedier conclusion; and almost a certainty that the various principalities in northern Germany would have remained more loyal. (Saxony... Ptui!)

But... Even if he had succeeded as planned with his 'Corpus Evangelicorum', the little duchies of northern Germany would have been fickle vassals at best.

What intrigues me more, however, is what Gustavus would have done after the 30YW... It is quite likely that he would have resumed his plans to take the territories that correspond to EU's Kurland, Kola, Far Karelia, Onega and Archangelsk.

Final note: most French and British historians tend to divide the 30YW in four phases: Palatine-Bohemian, Danish, Swedish and French. Usually there is little mention of Swedish efforts after the battle of Nördlingen in 1634. The truth however is that after the Swedish pure mercenary army failed at Nördlingen, the war in Germany was still essentially a duel between Sweden and the HRE until 1648. If not for Sweden, the HRE would have joined Spain and caught France between the proverbial hammer and anvil. Thus it would be far more accurate to call the 'French Phase' the 'All European War Phase'.

/Doomie
 

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Sweden would be in union with Denmark and Swedish forces would have to be pictured as rebels until a succesful independance were made.

Ah, but the beauty of the Kalmar Union in 1492 is that it was so terribly ambiguous... The reunification treaty had been drafted and agreed upon back in 1483, but had not been ratified, nor signed by the Swedish Chancellor (Sten Sture), who seemed to do everything in his power to obstruct and delay the formal reunification. Meanwhile, the Danish King Hans and Tsar Ivan III signed a secret treaty aimed at Sweden - not exactly something a loyal Union King does against a part of his own realm... (The Russians attacked Sweden in 1495, the Danes declared war in 1497.)

SO, in this particular case it would be almost equally accurate to depict Sweden as a rebellious Danish vassal state, a completely separate state with odd relations towards Denmark or an outright part of Denmark filled with rebels like Greven suggests.

Personally, I would go with the second alternative because that is how I interpret the situation. See my previous post on this subject: http://www.europa-universalis.com/forums/Forum1/HTML/000088.html

/Doomie
 

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Originally posted by Doomdark on 06-09-2000 09:37 PM
Ah, but the beauty of the Kalmar Union in 1492 is that it was so terribly ambiguous... The reunification treaty had been drafted and agreed upon back in 1483, but had not been ratified, nor signed by the Swedish Chancellor (Sten Sture), who seemed to do everything in his power to obstruct and delay the formal reunification. Meanwhile, the Danish King Hans and Tsar Ivan III signed a secret treaty aimed at Sweden - not exactly something a loyal Union King does against a part of his own realm... (The Russians attacked Sweden in 1495, the Danes declared war in 1497.)

SO, in this particular case it would be almost equally accurate to depict Sweden as a rebellious Danish vassal state, a completely separate state with odd relations towards Denmark or an outright part of Denmark filled with rebels like Greven suggests.

Personally, I would go with the second alternative because that is how I interpret the situation. See my previous post on this subject: http://www.europa-universalis.com/forums/Forum1/HTML/000088.html

/Doomie
---------------------------------------

Now I fully understand your view Doomie, but... :) In game terms it is a bit more complexed. You see, the lists of regents in the game are fixed. The best way, under such circumstances, to portait the following Swedish mess is by unhistorically name one regent and a vassalage;

Sten Sture Sjöblad 'R' 1470 – 6th Oct 1497

Hans (???) 'K (R)' 7th Oct 1497- 12th Aug 1501

Interregnum '-' 13th Aug 1501 – 14th Nov 1501

Sten Sture Sjöblad 'R' 15th Nov 1501 – 14th Dec 1503

Interregnum '-' 15th Dec 1503 – 20th Jan 1504

Svante Sture Natt och Dag 'R' 21st Jan 1504 – 2nd Jan 1512

Interregnum '-' 3rd Jan 1512 – 14th Jan 1512

Erik Trolle 'R' 15th Jan 1512 – 22nd July 1512

Sten Sture Natt och Dag 'R' 23rd July 1512- 3rd Feb 1520

Interregnum '-' 4th Feb 1520-31st Oct 1520

Christian II (Gustav Trolle) 'K (R)' 1st Nov 1520- 20th Aug 1521

Gustav Vasa 'R' 21st Aug 1521 – 5th June 1523

R=Regent, K= King

If you play the rebels who is your regent/leader during interregnum and during the periods where danish kings ruled in peace ???

Not an option IMHO ;)

/Greven



[This message has been edited by Greven (edited 09-06-2000).]
 

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If you play the rebels who is your regent/leader during interregnum and during the periods where danish kings ruled in peace ???

Well, I assume this problem has already been solved somehow, since Sweden does exist as a state in 1492 in the Grand Campaign (although it is a vassal to Denmark), does it not? This must mean that it also has a leader, correct?

Details are fine, but you can not simulate everything in a game. I am sure that there are countless examples of similarily chaotic periods in other European countries. For example, who is the leader of Russia during the 'Time of Troubles' in the game?

Actually, this brings up another important question I have: Are the dates of death fixed for all leaders? This might be reasonable for those who died of natural causes, but most definitely not for those who where killed (e.g. Gustavus Adolphus and Charles XII).

/Doomie
 

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In the dutch AAR i read that Willem van Oranje died of natural causes. In reality he was murdered by Balthasar Gerards, who was after the spansish bounty.

So it looks like the leaders that where murdered have the change to live on
 

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Talking about the Iberian Peninsula in 1492... the city of Granada, which was the last Muslim stronghold in Spain, fell on 2 January 1492, so the GC of EU is only 'wrong' in two days.

As for the possible existence of a separate Kingdom of Aragon, I suggest the following provinces for this new state in 1492:
Home provinces: Aragon, Valencia, Catalunya, Girona; Rousillon and the Balearic islands.
Conquered provinces: Sardinia and Sicilia.

Please two short notes on the subject:
1. I do not know what is the exact status of the Rousillon province in the GC in 1492. I believe it should be a home province of the Kingdom of Aragon because Catalan was the most spoken language in the province in 1492, and also because its ties with Aragon were far stronger than with France. In fact, Catalan is still spoken there (although mostly in the countryside) and the Catalan name for Rousillon is 'Northern Catalonia'.
2. What is the status of Naples (i.e., Southern Italy) in 1492? These provinces were conquered by King Alfonso V of Aragon during the 15th century, but I think (although I might be wrong) that when the king died they passed to a member of a minor branch of the Aragonese royal house. If I were right, the kingdom of Naples should have close ties with Aragon.

Oh... and regarding a possible heir to the Anglo-Spanish kingdom. Yes, probably you are right and a civil war would erupt in England, although Spain should be allowed to intervene. Although Queen Mary of England repressed the Anglicans during her reign (and this is why she has been known as 'bloody Mary' ever since! :) ), if no civil war erupted was probably caused by the fact that everybody assumed that the queen would not live long. But what if Queen Mary had ordered the execution of her half-sister Elizabeth? After all, the Wars of the Roses had witnessed examples of relatives executed by those in power, and the last battle of these wars was Stokes, fought in 1487 (not a long time ago, actually). I believe that Princess Elizabeth was in fear of being arrested and perhaps executed by Mary, but I might be wrong here. Any corrections would be most welcome.

Kind regards to all.

Martin.
 

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Originally posted by Doomdark on 06-10-2000 12:36 AM
'Well, I assume this problem has already been solved somehow, since Sweden does exist as a state in 1492 in the Grand Campaign (although it is a vassal to Denmark), does it not? This must mean that it also has a leader, correct?'

Yes it is 'Sten Sture (1492-1523)'. This is of course a simplification, but it is problematic to use the correct list. One could of course let the leader be called 'Regency' during the real reign of danish monarchs and interregnum. I think it is more difficult withe 'rebellion idea' but it might have worked. So I'm not saying that it is impossible only more work.

'Details are fine, but you can not simulate everything in a game. I am sure that there are countless examples of similarily chaotic periods in other European countries. For example, who is the leader of Russia during the 'Time of Troubles' in the game?'

The leader is called 'Time of Troubles'. So well I could imagine that the leader in Sweden 1492 until independence could be called 'Swedish War of Liberation' :)

'Actually, this brings up another important question I have: Are the dates of death fixed for all leaders? This might be reasonable for those who died of natural causes, but most definitely not for those who where killed (e.g. Gustavus Adolphus and Charles XII).'

I don't really know. I don't think exact dates are used.Problem: when did Mustafa of Tunisia die exactly ? However, monarchs seem to die randomly 'around' the original year of death.

sincerely

/Greven
 

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I don't know about monarchs, I think they're fixed. But I know for a fact military leader deaths are NOT fixed. For example in one game, a Polish leader died in one particulary bloody battle, ten years before he officially 'snuffed it' in history.

The same Polish leader in another game simply passed away quietly in his old age it seems :)

Sapura
 

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This is very interesting! However, looks like Charles XII and Gustavus Adolphus are predetermined to be killed in the battle? Am I right? And what about - let's say - Peter The Great? He was (at least formally) the commander-in-chief in several battles? How EU will treat him? As a field-marshal/general/military leader with possibility to be killed or as a monarch with 'fixed' date of 'passing away'?

Looking to hear from somebody....

Regards,
Nick
 

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Thanks for replying, Greven. This matter is very interesting...

So well I could imagine that the leader in Sweden 1492 until independence could be called 'Swedish War of Liberation'

Yeah, that would be pretty satisfactory. I would call it something else though... 'Union Wars' perhaps, or 'Dissolution of Kalmar Union'.

However, looks like Charles XII and Gustavus Adolphus are predetermined to be killed in the battle

This is a great shame, IMO, although we are looking at a virtual Pandora's Box here...

An example: If Gustavus had survived to old age, he might have sired a son who would have inherited the throne. Thus, Katarina would never have been Queen. Charles X would never have reigned, etc. In other words; Tempora Incognita. We would leave known history completely, although Charles X might still have become King if the son of Gustavus had died young without children of his own, etc.

Furthermore, some rulers doubled as generals or admirals (before and/or after assuming the throne), which should be possible in the game, but then they could not be allowed to die in battle.

What to do? Well, if you want to have all the historical rulers in the game, you have to have more or less fixed dates of death.

I would prefer a more loose and flexible model... Deaths would be random, based on age and assassination events. Kings could die in battle only if they were acting as generals (which would naturally boost morale!). During their lives, they would sire children (that you could marry away in 'Royal Marriages'), one of whom you could designate as heir (based on their various skills).

Basically what you would need is a complete roster of the members of your ruling dynasty, complete with military/diplomatic/organizational skills.

Much like in the old KOEI game 'Romance of the three Kingdoms' :D

Something to consider for EU 2? :)

/Doomie
 

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What about this
Henry the Eighth ( i hate Roman numerals) is able to sire a chid by his first wife. England would never have turned Anglican instead of Catholic or it would have occured much later. Things would have changed so much you cant even begin to list it all. Imagine that a the Heir of the english throne marries the Heir to the Spainish throne. Hmmmm.... Very intreasting. We could all be speaking Spainish on this forum.
 

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Originally posted by hacksaw on 06-12-2000 09:47 PM
What about this
Henry the Eighth ( i hate Roman numerals) is able to sire a chid by his first wife. England would never have turned Anglican instead of Catholic or it would have occured much later. Things would have changed so much you cant even begin to list it all. Imagine that a the Heir of the english throne marries the Heir to the Spainish throne. Hmmmm.... Very intreasting. We could all be speaking Spainish on this forum.

Somehow, I can't picture the English accepting the rule of the King of Spain, Anglican church or not.

Also, although the desire of Henry to marry Anne Boleyn was the immediate impulse for his split with the church, there was already widespread sympathy in England for the Protestant cause and antipathy towards the Pope. Plus, by splitting with the Pope, Henry was able to close the monasteries and distribute their property to the nobility and gentry (always a good way to increase one's popularity). Without the annulment issue, it would have taken longer for the split to occur, but it still would have happened.
 

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Originally posted by hacksaw on 06-13-2000 03:49 AM
They accept Hannover rule. The spainish were different, but i dont think that the huge hate between the nations of Spain and Englad had developed truely untill the time of Elizabeth.

The Hanoverians, and other foreign monarchs, resided in England and were 'King of England' first and foremost above their other titles. The King of Spain would have regarded England as only another province in his empire. Also, although it's true no particular enmity developed between Spain and England before Elizabethan times, the growing Protestantism of England would have created important religious differences. Thus, England would have revolted for reasons similar to the Netherlands.
 

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More French what if :

As Raphael and Martin Cullell-Young indicate there are a certain number of variants historically possible for France in 1492.

As it was said Burgundy was a major player in the european history until 1477, the death of Charnes the bold duke of Burgundy.

His arch enemy was Louis XI king of France (died in 1483).
Louis XI obtained a certain number of achievements during his reign (1461-1483).

He destroyed Burgundy as a independant state.
He obtain a final peace with england and submission of all lords in the realm to royal power (Britanny which have very close ties with england for example...)
He attach to the french kingdom 'Provence' 'Armagnac', 'Maine' 'Cerdagne' and 'Roussillon'.
By his diplomatic actions he obtained a 30 year period of stability in Italy and by this he protected the italian renaissance.

His successors Charles VIII and Louis XII were not that wise and broke that stability.
By doing this they pave the way to spanish influence in Italy.

France and Burgundy :
After the death of Charles the bold (1477)
of and his daughter Mary (married to Maximilian of Austria), Louis obtain that his son Charles marry the little Marguerite (born 1480) daughter of Mary and maximilien.
By this mariage he obtained the control of 'Franche comté' of part of the provinces of 'Nord' and of 'Artois'.

This provinces were not french in 1492 as his son choose to marry the heir of Britanny Anne later in order integrate Britanny in the realm. The marriage with little marguerite was canceled and these provinces came back to the Empire (HRE).

So the variants can be

1)France trade Britanny to easter and northern provinces :

Charles VIII choose not to marry Anne of Britanny

Britanny remain a minor state with close ties with england (Britanny = provinces of Bretagne Armor Mobihan et Vendée in the boardgame )

France controls the provinces of 'Nord' 'Artois' and 'Franche Comte'

2)A Weaker Royal power

Louis XI didn't success in crushing the mighty french lords.

Burgundy, Britanny and 'Provence' are minors states
Burgundy has close relations with England and the Empire (HRE).


3)France protector of Italian renaissance

France begin with province of 'Nord' 'Artois' and 'Franche Comte'

France has close diplomatic relations with all states of the italian peninsula except for Papal states.
(Historically (1480s)the papal states were trying to develop their land power (Sixte IV).

(The names of the provinces used ares the names of the boardgame).
 

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What about this one, folks...

NO FIRST PARTITION OF POLAND

To my knowledge, Austria was a reluctant partner in the First Partition. The main instigators were Frederick II of Prussia and Catherine II of Russia; on the Austrian part, Joseph II was for joining in the partition but his mother the Empress Maria Theresa was not. Finally, Joseph had his way, but what would have happened if he had not? What if Maria Theresa had prevailed...?

Thus:
Prussia and Russia put pressure on Poland 'for their own good'. Fearing an increase in Prussian power resulting from such a move, Austria decides to back up Poland and declares war on Prussia and Russia. All other alliances and countries would be the same as in 1756, for the Seven Years War resulted in a return to the pre-war status quo (at least in Europe). Hence:

The pro-Polish faction: Poland-Lithuania-Saxony, Austria, France, Spain.
The pro-Prussian faction: Prussia, Russia, Britain-Hannover.

The position of Sweden and Turkey is a mistery to me. Did Sweden participate in the Seven Years War? I believe it did, and it was against Prussia, but I am not too sure about this. As for Turkey, I think it remained neutral; one wonders why it did not try to 'stan in the nack' either Austria or Russia...

Best regards to all.

Martin
 

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Originally posted by hacksaw on 06-13-2000 03:49 AM
They accept Hannover rule. The spainish were different, but i dont think that the huge hate between the nations of Spain and Englad had developed truely untill the time of Elizabeth.

Although 'Bloody Mary' (Elizabeths sister and Regal Predecessor)did marry the Spanish King, an Act of Parliament very firmly excluded him from political control if Mary died childless.

So the 'split' with Spain was more of a gentle parting of the ways until Elizabeth's reign showed that Spain was not to be considered England's most favoured nation on the continent.

(Apart from her navy) England was very definitely a third rate European power in those times and Elizabeth needed to continually play off France/Scotland and Spain against each other.

If the Spanish Armada had landed their troops in southwest England instead of sailing eastwards to rendevous with the additional troops then England would have been conquered and the Church of England possibly dissolved.

Conclusion: none really... I just wanted to waffle :)
 

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I think everyone is forgetting the biggest whatif of all.

What if China decided to play aggressive instead of isolationist?

Just taste it for awhile and you'll see what a HUGE impact that would have had on world history.

:)

Marcus