Nominate some fave possible scenarios..

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How about everyone here (beta testers and non testers) writes out their top 2 or 3 favourite scenarios they would love EU to be either included with / or one you,yourselves may create when the game is released.


To start the ball rolling I'll choose some possible ones I'd like to see included / or create myself:


1) The Wars of the 'Holy League' (Siege of Vienna, etc). The Polish & Austrian alliance against the invading Turks. Could begin from 1670 when the Turks invaded Poland, right down to the Siege of Vienna in 1683, all the way to 1699 when by the Treaty of Karlowitz, Turkish occupied European lands were almost completley reduced, freeing Hungary and other areas. Several paths can lead to a 'happy' ending (depending on who you're playing as; Poland, Austria or Turkey), or a negative ending. For example, Turkey may in the scenario actually succeed in defeating the Polish/Austrian/German forces at Vienna and go on to capture the whole of Austria.. lots of fun.


2) The Polish-Swedish conflict starting from 1600-1660. This would be quite complex, because it would need to cover the 30 years war as well.

These wars have not been discussed or covered much in western history / warfare books. Especially the 1655-1660 war that brought 1/2 of Europe into the conflict.


3) The Polish-Russian conflict from the 'Time of Troubles' in 1610, when the Poles and Swedes ravaged Moscow, a Polish garrison was established in the Kremlin, to the eternal treaty in 1686 dividing Ukraine between Poland and Russia. Sweden, along with Poland / Russia could be playable countries in this scenario.

That is, the exceedingly bloody conflicts between Poland and Russia for over a century( actually since about 11-12 AD) tassling over who would eventually become the staying power of Eastern Europe in the 18th century.


Sapura

 

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Originally posted by Sapura on 06-07-2000 11:43 AM
How about everyone here (beta testers and non testers) writes out their top 2 or 3 favourite scenarios they would love EU to be either included with / or one you,yourselves may create when the game is released.

Splendid idea, Sapura! Would you also like to include some 'what-if' scenarios? Por example, what if Charles XII of Sweden had beaten the anti-Swedish alliance during the Great Northern War?

Besides, would it be possible for us non beta testers to have a list of the already available scenarios? This way we will save space (and time!).

Thanks again and best regards.

Martin

 

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Oh ..I dunno about that. Johan will have to answer that question


Yeah, what-if scenarios are great. Whatever you like, whatever you want. After all, its your personal favourites

Sap

 

[Doomdark]

It's tough without knowing which scenarios are already in... So, I will name some that I can only suspect are not.

1) Livonian Tug-o-War (1600-1630)

This would depict the Swedish-Polish conflicts of 1600-1629, that ended with Gustavus Adolphus capturing Livland and Riga. Players: Sweden and Poland

2) Karl's Ambition (1654-1660)

This would cover the exploits of the very aggressive Swedish King Charles X, who attempted to completely subjugate both Denmark and Poland. Players: Sweden, Poland, Denmark, Russia and Brandenburg.

3) Ashes of Order (1520-1565)

The Decline of the Teutonic Order. Players: Teutonic Order, Poland, Denmark, Russia and Sweden.

4) The Spanish Armada (1583-1593)

This scenario would cover the period 1583-1593 (five years before and after the historical failure of the Armada). Players: England and Spain.

I also gladly second Sapura's 'Time of Troubles' scenario.

'What If' Scenarios:

1) Scandinavia Universalis (1492-1792)

The Kalmar Union survived and the capital was moved to Älvsborg (province of Västergötland in EU) to calm the rebellious Swedes. Under the flag of Three Crowns this immense nation faced the coming centuries united. Players: Kalmar Union, Poland-Lithuania, Russia, Turkey, England, Spain, France, Portugal.

2) Carolus Rex (1706-1792)

Charles XII listened to reason and marched on Moscow in April of 1701. The city fell to the Swedes in August after a short siege. Tsar Peter's dream of a Russian presence in the Baltic was thus crushed right there in his own capital. Poland accepted peace terms 5 years later, forced to accept Swedish puppet King Stanislaw Leszczynski. With Kola, Far Karelia and Pskov in Swedish hands and Poland as a vassal, Charles turns his conquering gaze on... You choose. =) Players: Sweden, Turkey, Prussia, Austria, France, England.

3) The Greater Commonwealth (1599-1792)
Sigismund managed to crush the Swedish rebellion under his nephew Duke Karl, and promptly began to re-catholisize the country. The capital is moved to Riga. Now the Greater Commonwealth is the most powerful nation in Europe, and the union with Sweden has sown the seeds of vitally important government reforms... Players: Poland-Lithuania-Sweden, Russia, Turkey, France, Spain, England, Netherlands.

Phew. Well, there you are.

/Doomie

 

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Livonian Tug-o-War (1600-1630)

Should rather go to 1635. There is scope for Poland to attack Sweden from 1629-35 and was actually going to happen. Lack of funds / disputes between magnate houses unfortunately stopped the invasion. However that would have been very interesting to see. A Polish invasion of Sweden.


Ashes of Order (1520-1565)

Should rather start from around 1400-1410 or so. But since EU plays from 1492, stuff it It should end in 1525 though. The Teutonic Order was secularized in this year and Albrecht von Hohenzollern paid homage. The Order ceased being an independant state.

The Greater Commonwealth (1599-1792)

I really like this suggestion. Perhaps it may have happened, had Sigismund actually used a majority of Polish troops, rather than fighting Swedes with Swedes

Btw I doubt the capital would have been in Riga. It would rather have been like with Pol/Lithuania. One capital in Warsaw, one capital in Wilno.


Sapura

[This message has been edited by Sapura (edited 07-06-2000).]

 

[Doomdark]

It should end in 1525 though. The Teutonic Order was secularized in this year and Albrecht von Hohenzollern paid homage.

Yeah, well, I kind of imagined it as a scenario dealing with the free-for-all that resulted when the Order disappeared, with a a possibility to play the Order and live on.

/Doomie

 

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A Matter of Honour (1685-1697)

Portraits the dynastical and religious problems in England and France during the period. Charles of England tried to evade the religious laws of his country in favour of catholism and at the same time the french government upheaved the Edict of Nantes outlawing protestantism. This is also disturbed by Bavarian claims on Cologne and French claims on Pfalz creating a virutual Hobbesian state of existance in Western Europe.

This is a prefered Multiplayer:
Players:

Team 1: French Protestants, England

Team 2:English Royalists, France

The French protestants starts as vassals(-200) of France and allies of England. England got most of the 'Great Britain', but are vassals(-200) of the English Royalists. The English Royalists got Ireland,Scotland and London and the Royal Navy, and are allied to France.

Now will this be a deathmatch !!!

/Greven

 

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BAsically, i always prefer the grand campaign games over senarios in this type of game.

However, i would love to be able to see Holland indepenednt in 1492, under the rule of philip the Handsome. I could have happened, and it owuld be great to see if Holland could survive on its won during that timeperiod

Marc

 

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yes that is a good idea, but there are many cenario's i would like to see that are not in the time frame....like Paraguay-Bolivian wars...

but i suppose you could play the Incan-Spanish wars, that would be alot of fun to be the native's, and it would even out because the spanish would suffer many attritions over the journey..

hmm, i cant think of any in the games timeframe, damn.

 

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Very good idea indeed, Sap.

I've seen that the '30 Years War' was done yet. So I think the other most importants and interesting wars in western Europe (and not only) could be :

1/ the Spanish Succession War (1701-1713/14).

If possible, you can begin the scenario just before Charles II of Spain's death, so that the spanish player can still have the choice between Philip of Anjou (the one he choose) and Charles of Habsburg (and why not, a still alive Joseph Ferdinand of Bavaria). Of course, this choice can induce any kind of alliance between the big powers.


2/The seven years wars (1756-1763)

See the topic on the forum a few days ago


3/The independance war of the USA

I remember that the US market is very important for the success of this game, and we all want it to succeed. This can also be said about the 7YW scenario above.

'What if' scenarios :

1/'What if a marriage had not/had occur ?'

a/Divided Spain : what if Aragon and Castilla had not have a dynastic union. Interesting because it can make two very different powers : one turned towards Atlantic, Castilla ; one turned towards Mediterranea, Aragon. As a variant, imagine any matrimonial combination between Portugal, Castilla, Aragon, Valencia, Barcelona, Navarra. (I think of you Martin ;-) )

b/ Independant Burgundy : this can create a very interesting scenario, as Burgundy can counterbalance France and block her in her expansion, or England and fight with her for the supremacy at sea, or even Habsburgs and attempt to dominate the Holy Roman Empire (and inherit the Crown if possible). Any period of time can be interesting, but the more simple would be to begin in 1492.

2/ The road to Germany (start in 1492) : because of national reasons and strong suspicion against the Habsburgs, Hungary and Bohemia have prefered to stay independant than giving their throne to their neighbour. Nor did they give it to the Polish king. The turks have now a very interesting opportunity to fight each of these powers one after one, and to reach the heart of Christendom.


3/ No Joan of Arc : What if the 100 years war in France had ended by a partition like the one during the 1420's ? The king of England holds Guyenne, Normandy and most of territories between Loire and Seine. The Duke of Burgundy has all the territories lying between Franche-Comté and Holland. The king of France holds all of France south of Loire. Interesting because Spain has now a weaker northern neighbour and can expect to expand in this direction, because England is now such a big power. And it can end in a partition of France between a latin south and a germanic north (united with the low countries for example).

That's all I've got now.

Just one point Sap : can you tell us what can still be changed and done in the game, so that we can contribute as much as possible ?

Thank you for all the big work you do. We all appreciate.

Raf

 

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Quote

1/'What if a marriage had not/had occur ?'

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Well the marriage that was meant to be was between Isabela of Castille and the heir of the portuguese crown (don´t know the name ), son of King John II.
What happened next was the death of the heir on a horse riding accident - Isabella ended up married to Ferdinand of Aragon.

So one of the what ifs would be Portugal+Castille under a portuguese king

 

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What if Germany had been strongly united under a king like England and France instead of loosely united under the Holy Roman Empire? Creating a large state in the middle of Europe would certainly shake things up. I am sure France and Poland would not be happy.

 

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Originally posted by Henrique Duarte on 06-07-2000 07:38 PM
Quote

1/'What if a marriage had not/had occur ?'

-

Good point there, Raphael and Henrique! To begin with, if Aragon had not combined with Castile, who would have married Philip the Fair of Hapsburg? This is a bit complicated, so I will try to clarify:

Ferdinand of Aragon + Isabella of Castile
= Joan of Aragon/Castile (aka Spain)

Maximilian of Austria + Mary of Burgundy
= Philip the Fair of Austria/Burgundy

Then...
Joan of Spain + Philip the Fair
= Charles I of Spain (aka Emperor Charles V of Germany).

(NOTE: I am not too sure about who exactly married Emperor Maximilian, but she certainly belonged to the Burgundian ducal house).

Just imagine the possibilities...

1. As suggested by Henrique, if Isabella had married a Portuguese prince and everything else being equal, then perhaps a member of the Castilian/Portuguese royal family would have married Philip the Fair. Portugal would rule (in 1492) over Portugal (and overseas possessions) and all the Spanish possessions save those owned by the separate Kingdom of Aragon (i.e., the historical territories in Spain, together with the Balearic islands, Sardinia and Sicilia. Probably Naples as well, although historically was conquered by the Spanish general Gonzalo Fernandez de Cordoba in c. 1504-6).

2. Ferdinand and Isabella followed a policy of marriages with their children which would have resulted in many possible combinations, had things worked otherwise. The Hapsburg Inheritance and the birth of Charles I was just one possible outcome. I will check this in my books and I will let you know more information about it. Nevertheless, almost anything is possible.

3. What if the last Duke of Burgundy (Charles the Mad? I am unsure about this) had not died in battle against the Swiss in 1477? If he had had time to sire a son, then his lands would not have been inherited by Austria and an independent Netherlands would have been a reality (especially if Emperor Maximilian had created the Kingdom of Burgundy, which was the Duke's ultimate ambition).

4. Some more grounds to think about, but only ideas that are running in my head:
- Survival of the Bizantine Empire until 1492.
- An international crusade against the Turks in 1492.
- Triumph of the Jacobites in Scotland and England (1689, 1719 or 1745).
- Charles I of Spain decides not to give the German Empire to his brother Ferdinand in 1556. Thus, King Philip II inherits both the Spanish territories AND the Imperial title.
- Triumph of the Imperialists during the 30 Years War. Spain has a base in the Baltic (Stralsund, conquered by Wallenstein in 1630) and this is used to strangle the Dutch rebels.
- No War of the Spanish Succession. The Spanish Crown is inherited by Joseph Ferdinand of Bavaria (as already suggested in this forum).
- The marriage between King Philip II of Spain and Queen Mary I of England is fruitful and a heir is born (circa 1556). England and Spain combine! (Ah... that would be an ideal scenario for an Anglo-Spanish like me! )

Finally, one point for debate: what do you think would have happened if the Turks had won at Lepanto?

Best regards to all.

Martin

 

[Greyshaft]

The marriage between King Philip II of Spain and Queen Mary I of England is fruitful and a heir is born (circa 1556). England and Spain combine!

More like England dissolves into Civil War as the Protestants rally around Elizabeth. Spain lands troops to restore order and then France and Scotland ally with Elizabeth to prevent a Spanish/English victory.

Meanwhile the Turks creep ever westwards

/GRaham

 

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Raph,

can you tell us what can still be changed and done in the game, so that we can contribute

What exactly do you mean?


Sap.

 

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'Raph,
can you tell us what can still be changed and done in the game, so that we can contribute

What exactly do you mean?


Sap.'

You're right, I wasn't very clear.

I mean that I've seen in other places of this forum that the map was over, and that it couldn't be changed anymore. So there's probably other elements of the game that can't be also (for example, income calculations, military aspects, etc.).

But when I saw that you propose us to give ideas about scenarios, that means that at least, this aspect is still changeable. So there might be other aspects of the game that can still be altered. Maybe, I don't know, some design stuff, like music or heraldry, or even some more important matters. And I think you can use us to give you ideas or contributions on these points, if needed.

Thank you

Raf

 

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Well, as I've said constantly ..

This game is more or less finished and this means that drastic changes in the games code now cannot occur. Changes in A.I / tweaks in military strengths / other such stuff can still be changed / altered, and indeed this is what is happening now. The A.I is one of the most imporant aspects in a game like this...

Scenarios can be altered, and will continue to be altered, if you want them to. I doubt that in the end scenario files will be encrypted so I thought that I'd post here asking people what they would like as possible historical or / what if scenarios. This way we can get a bit of a discussion going as well as showing Paradox there's a huge internet crowd out there who wants to do their own personalized scenarios..

Sapura

 

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Another possible AAR..


Partitions of Poland. What If.

e.g. 2 possiblities, playing as Poland from 1717 onwards. Try to stablize your country, get rid of the Russian hold on the government, create a new constitution, etc, all whilst creating possible alliances against Prussia and Russia.

The scenario can end badly (i.e. start of the partitions in 1772) or you can rid the country of de-stablization and anarchy, again making it a European Power.


Sapura

 

[Mariani]

In regards to the tantalizing 'what if' scenario involving a divided Iberia...what's the status of Granada in 1492 in EU? If my history's correct, wasn't this fairly prosperous emirate conquered in mid-year of 1492? I highly doubt the game designers overlooked the timing of the reconquista, but every screen shot I've seen thus far portrays Spain as one of two nations on the Iberian peninsula...(Navarre notwithstanding...)

------------------
-J. Mariani

 

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Originally posted by Mariani on 06-09-2000 05:10 PM
In regards to the tantalizing 'what if' scenario involving a divided Iberia...what's the status of Granada in 1492 in EU? If my history's correct, wasn't this fairly prosperous emirate conquered in mid-year of 1492? I highly doubt the game designers overlooked the timing of the reconquista, but every screen shot I've seen thus far portrays Spain as one of two nations on the Iberian peninsula...(Navarre notwithstanding...)
------------------------------
These two provinces starts the game belonging to Spain. Misses real history with approximately 6 months. However, if ever all details of the year 1492 were to be incorporated it wouldn't be a very handy game. For example Bretagne would be a vasall, Orleans would be independent, Sweden would be in union with Denmark and Swedish forces would have to be pictured as rebels until a succesful independance were made. Very few of these things is important enough to be portraited if the game shall have a good playability.

At least in my opinion...

/Greven