Nomads, itsybitsy OP?

[Zsrai]

Nomads may be better balanced if the Khagan's "demesne limit" never increased with the size of the Horde. If you were more or less always capped at 4 or 5 before you have to split off new clans like you are when you start small (see OPM or TPM starts in 767), I think that'd help. I'm not sure how fun it would be game play wise, but it may also make going Feudal or whatever much more appealing than just pillaging the entire map into grasslands.

 

[Alliegorical]

Two changes would go a long way toward balancing nomads:

First, clan sentiment is way too easy to keep high. You could make it so that once clans reach a certain absolute size, they get more uppity. That way, once your khaganate is XBOX HUEG, you'll still have challenges. Also give a higher-prestige-but-lower-population khan a strong claim on succession rather than a weak claim, and give them a pretender opinion malus. That way, your position as khagan will be less secure, adding more challenge. Finally, don't allow clan tyranny-free clan absorption on traitors; it's just too easy to cheese.

Second, give nomads a stiff penalty to sieges until a certain tech level (around 1200), sort of like the pagan homeland attrition penalty.

 

[robomax]

I spelled it wrong "dualism"
the division of something conceptually into two opposed or contrasted aspects, or the state of being so divided. To Khan he was above all those feudal Titles already. They were nothing.

The game could just be Retitled to Total War: Horse Lords. Because now it has nothing to do with Crusades or Kings. Is Paradox the Con of Cons now LOL

 

[robomax]

Why duelist should atractect to government type, being dueling doesn't means you are a hedge knight nor fencing master.



I agree here, its said nomads dont care for dejure thing but they(our vassals) desire duchy titles and then fighting for their de-jure duchy lands.



While you are nomad, you can still have feudal vassals, auto-destroy thing isnt the best idea.



It makes no sense to going tribal before adopting feudalism as a nomad. Its historically inaccurate tho.
Each type of goverment has cons and pros. Being tribal was really good option before LI/A nerf if you can handle their succession or just let it go as a role-play.
But i must agree nomadic government type hardly have cons.

Why would you care about feudal vassals if your a different government type? Basically the Rus people were slaves not vassals.

 

[robomax]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_Empire

The Vassels as people from the west call it were tribute states to the Khan and local populations were enslaved. That's basically the government of the Khans

 

[Maegras]

Why would you care about feudal vassals if your a different government type? Basically the Rus people were slaves not vassals.

Beacuse i dont wanna raze every single county which makes no sense at all. I'd like to raze places like Volga Bulgaria, Ruthenia while i'd like to invade(occupy all) then create vassals in jerussalem, anatolia, greece. Thats why i care about having other type of vassals. It's also good to have feudal vassals since they give you max levy/tax no matter what.

 

[riadach]

Should Khans be living so long on the steppe?

Perhaps everytime you get a trait that weakens you, be it disease, injury or incapacity either your heir or another clan should challenge you to a duel.

 

[robomax]

You don't have Raze any thing . If you want to play Historically , Then all Vassals would be Tribute states (Can still Call to War) not feudal. One of the reason why its unbalanced. Your mixing 2 government types and Changing history in a bad way.
If you were to Just conquest or an Invasion , instead of Subject-gate or De-Jure in Feudal fashion. You put your people in their you would have vassals but in a different government type. Then Clan politics would come more into play.

 

[Ambigore]

You don't even need money, just get 250 LC for 10 prestige. You can "upgrade" to the 75g HC/LC horde after you stockpile some cash, or maybe even relocate your Khaganate to Western/Southern Europe for the pure HC horde.

I find 10 prestige for 250 LC really cheap. How do nomads gain mass amounts of gold, though? Through pillaging?

 

[Zsrai]

I find 10 prestige for 250 LC really cheap. How do nomads gain mass amounts of gold, though? Through pillaging?

Through pillaging, feudal/temple taxes when taking over large swathes of Feudal lands, and the Silk Road. You can also raid with them like Tribes can too, but the Nomads tend to start in the poor corner of the map and they can never build boats themselves.

 

[Ambigore]

Okay thanks. What's the best way of earning gold via the silk roads? City vassals? Or should I raze everything and turn them empty?

 

[Zsrai]

Okay thanks. What's the best way of earning gold via the silk roads? City vassals? Or should I raze everything and turn them empty?

I'd leave a City & Temple vassal there, as barons, and build a Trade Post. In the empty Nomad lands you don't get nearly as much, so you could maybe even give those away.

 

[Ambigore]

Cool, I might try that then!

 

[hvald]

When I play as nomad, it feels like console cheating.

Spoiler: Jenö, year 849

With 300g/month income. Nomads OP? Naaah...

 

[Kumicho]

I've posted this elsewhere, but the only real change I'd like to see is to have Nomads completely unable to revoke titles from Feudal/Iqta/Tribal vassals. So they'd get to grow quickly and overrun empires, but then face multiple revolts after the subjugated bonus wore off.

I like the fact that the Nomads are overpowering militarily, and the fact that the subjugation wars don't grant them any holdings... Now PDX just needs to make the realms a little less stable.

 

[hvald]

I've posted this elsewhere, but the only real change I'd like to see is to have Nomads completely unable to revoke titles from Feudal/Iqta/Tribal vassals. So they'd get to grow quickly and overrun empires, but then face multiple revolts after the subjugated bonus wore off.

I like the fact that the Nomads are overpowering militarily, and the fact that the subjugation wars don't grant them any holdings... Now PDX just needs to make the realms a little less stable.

I don't see how this would solve the main problem with nomads, their utterly retarded op military strength. Revolts are free prestige and ransom gold. As a matter of fact, all my subjects have -100 opinion since I abuse them relentlessly. Yes, I drink some bad wine and my bedchamber hisses like a steam sauna but it doesn't matter since the heir will inherit the same political climate as daddy (vassals hatred). I think that right now as how nomads works, they are fubar. Back to the drawing board and scrap this pile of over powered madness.

 

[Kumicho]

I don't see how this would solve the main problem with nomads, their utterly retarded op military strength. Revolts are free prestige and ransom gold. As a matter of fact, all my subjects have -100 opinion since I abuse them relentlessly. Yes, I drink some bad wine and my bedchamber hisses like a steam sauna but it doesn't matter since the heir will inherit the same political climate as daddy (vassals hatred). I think that right now as how nomads works, they are fubar. Back to the drawing board and scrap this pile of over powered madness.

Sure, right up until you drink your poisoned wine when your heir is only 5 years old, and bye bye empire. Your son will lose the election, and the winner will settle down in a huge portion of the feudal area. Then the next winner will decide to settle down somewhere else. I've had it happen twice now, and have watched my empire utterly implode each time.

 

[hvald]

Sure, right up until you drink your poisoned wine when your heir is only 5 years old, and bye bye empire. Your son will lose the election, and the winner will settle down in a huge portion of the feudal area. Then the next winner will decide to settle down somewhere else. I've had it happen twice now, and have watched my empire utterly implode each time.

While that will reduce the empire, it won't change the fact that the little rascal inherits an invincible killing machine horde that can stomp any feudal/tribal nation regardless of who they are. ERE, HRE, Caliph, it doesn't matter. Combine that with subjugation, invasion, subordination and conquest CB's and losing an empire is just a bump in the road. Let's face it, NK mode of old pales in comparison to massive amount of HC at the reins of a nomad ruler.

 

[Peter Kirby]

the only real change I'd like to see is to have Nomads completely unable to revoke titles from Feudal/Iqta/Tribal vassals

Maybe this helps with AI nomads, that I don't know.

Personally as a player I found that the most powerful option was almost always this:

1 - Get population up to around 80% of the limit
2 - Give away a few counties to a clan that I'm going to absorb later, to get 90% of limit of pop
3 - Give every other clan 1 county, maintain the clan limit always
4 - Set up a string of invasions simultaneously against anyone in diplomatic range that I wanted to take in one swipe (e.g., "Eastern Europe")
5 - Siege every province down at the county (top) level
6 - Peace out, hold everything personally (baron vassals or not, didn't see the point really, had too much gold from pillaging and pop tax to fool around with it)

At least that is how I did a "Khan of Khans" game with the Mongols at 1220. Took 63 years (but certainly could be done much faster than that).