Nomads, itsybitsy OP?

[alertrelic]

I think nomads to be less stable, and more reliant on the characteristics of their leader. Forcing them to deal with the existing cultural differences would be good, not sure exactly how it would be achieved but right now you can genocide your way across the steppes and sweep everything clean quite easily.

Maybe powerful clans need to be a bit more expansionist and independent-minded. Removing the 'Overthrow Khagan' faction goal and making it so that powerful clans always seek independence could work, some could potentially get weak claims to allow the realm to reform later through warfare. Basically, I think you want to have big hordes splitting up more often.

It might also be nice to see more done with dueling and prestige. Allowing faction leaders/adventurers etc. to duel the Khagan for their goal would be really cool. You could transfer a significant % of prestige from the loser to the winner and link clan sentiment more closely to prestige. This would make the stability of your realm contingent on being the strongest as well as the most popular/diplomatic. These are just ideas based on a little bit of play, but more of this kind of interpersonal stuff would be interesting and would fit with the theme and historical context.

The swarm and heavy cavalry tactics are really strong at the moment but I'm not sure nerfing their troops in particular terrain would help much. You might just end with very powerful blobs that stop at the edges of the steppes, almost arbitrarily. Not sure if it makes a lot of historical sense either given that similar 'hordes' conquered China/Persia and most of the diverse areas around Eurasia at one point or another.

 

[KingNothing]

Nomads op? Naaah...

Spoiler: Mo' powwah!

What year did you start? By the looks of it, you started in one of the first two start dates. Given your time, that's not particularly big. The steppe provinces are large in size, not in number. I'm guessing here, but in terms of total counties, I would say you are the 4th largest?

 

[arghoz]

Nomads op? Naaah...

Spoiler: Mo' powwah!

Still smaller then me and 200years ahead! I got entire empire of persia + a big chunk of byzantine as well now. But its getting kinda boring as im just destroying everyone. Might go settle as republic soon just for a laugh.

 

[kemor]

Problem is that nomads need to rise high under the right circumstances then explode the generation after and while that would make interesting AIs (and so far for my game is pretty much what's been happening), players seem to only like growth no matter what and don't find it "fun" when their empire is destroyed upon succession.

Overall they are implemented with a dynasty structure (as in, future generations are meant to build upon their parents) while they should have been implemented purely as a moment in time for one dude. All their mechanics should be tied up to how insane a leader is at a specific moment, scaling up on a curve so that soon as you get a really good ruler, they start snowballing like crazy, but soon as he loses some stats (with age, accidents, etc) or the next dude is not as good, it comes crashing down immediately and you're back to a single province clan faster than you can say "horse shit!".

 

[hvald]

Still smaller then me and 200years ahead! I got entire empire of persia + a big chunk of byzantine as well now. But its getting kinda boring as im just destroying everyone. Might go settle as republic soon just for a laugh.

Exactly, I didn't even try to blob but got 150k in gold and half the world. I could invade the rest of the map with that save and that's just without even knowing all the tricks with nomads. If that isn't overpowered to the point of being broken, I don't know what is. Oh, and I did start as a subject to a khan that were in tributary to the khazaks, next door to both Abbasids and ERE. That should be an impossible start but it was laughingly easy after just a couple of decades. Raiding both ERE and the caliph without being afraid of getting troops destroyed. Laughable. Who needs pre nerfed archers with english/welsh commanders when you can get HC for a pittance of gold instead.

 

[TheDungen]

Nomads should be more character driven, yes you take over their population but their courtiers become your courtiers too and they all have their religion and culture that they keep passing on or something like that.

 

[Maegras]

Nomads op? Naaah...

Spoiler: Mo' powwah!

Whats the point? PLAYER CAN DO THIS WITH ANY LEADER/GOVERNMENT. Surely its gonna take more than it takes with nomads but still... What about just dont conquer whole map just beacuse you can do it? With new features like silk road, tribute CB you can do the same with anything/anyone.
Nomads SURELY need some rebalancing, sucsession laws are far too smoth, inhertence should damage your father's existing horde, clans need more rebellion etc etc.

But its getting old with "nomads are OP with SS that shows what player did achieve in no time.

 

[TheDungen]

Whats the point? PLAYER CAN DO THIS WITH ANY LEADER/GOVERNMENT. Surely its gonna take more than it takes with nomads but still... What about just dont conquer whole map just beacuse you can do it? With new features like silk road, tribute CB you can do the same with anything/anyone.
Nomads SURELY need some rebalancing, sucsession laws are far too smoth, inhertence should damage your father's existing horde, clans need more rebellion etc etc.

But its getting old with "nomads are OP with SS that shows what player did achieve in no time.

Well laying tall is only really an option if the AI know hows to do that too, and it don't if the AI can decalre a war amd think it can win it basically almost always will. I tnever stops to consider if it's even worth it.

 

[Maegras]

AI lost and won subjugation wars in my current game, and when they win they did settle. AI isnt capable of exploit or takes advantages of new features such as pillage and/or having vast empire of silk road. They are most likely to settle and let leftover nomad clans grow strong and do it again then settle again and again.

I dont deny nomads are strong in current patch, they were strong historically tho. All they need dynamic sucsession/more revolts nd empires that split after inheritance and clans fight to unite them all under same banner.

 

[TheDungen]

AI lost and won subjugation wars in my current game, and when they win they did settle. AI isnt capable of exploit or takes advantages of new features such as pillage and/or having vast empire of silk road. They are most likely to settle and let leftover nomad clans grow strong and do it again then settle again and again.

I dont deny nomads are strong in current patch, they were strong historically tho. All they need dynamic sucsession/more revolts nd empires that split after inheritance and clans fight to unite them all under same banner.

No they weren't strong historically, there was basically two people over the course of two millenia who made them strong, Atilla and Temujin. Seljuk went adventuring and did well, but aside from him between Atilla and Temujin the steppes were weak and fractured the nomads were being pushed back. Then comes Temujin and they blob like crazy for a couple of generations then they break apart and start an ever faster regression that they never recovered from.

 

[hvald]

The thing is, right now writing a guide to how to play nomads as good as possible is:

1) Buy 150HC/100LC with your money. Do not get side tracked with foolishness like horse archers or any other troop type. I don't care that you are altaic. HC >>>> HA regardless.
2) Build temples everywhere.
3) See step 1 and 2 and don't waiver. No horse archers! None!

With the above strategy you will win whatever challenge you put out to accomplish. Wanna invade ERE? After a stack of 10K (6K HC and 4K LC) you are ready. Wanna take on the caliph? Sure, why not. Both at the same time? Take a stack of 15K instead. Nothing they can muster will defeat 9K HC + 6K LC. Upkeep for the army? Five sacks of wheat and a moldy side of beef should do it. Think it's gamey to only buy best troop types? What the hell am I supposed to do? Buy useless horse archers instead when the best retinue ever seen in this game costs 75g/pop? The OP (original poster) asked if nomads are a tad op (overpowered) at the moment. The answer is that they are the most op thing I ever seen in this game and by a wide margin. I play single player so I don't really care if they are nerfed or not.

 

[Zsrai]

Problem is that nomads need to rise high under the right circumstances then explode the generation after and while that would make interesting AIs (and so far for my game is pretty much what's been happening), players seem to only like growth no matter what and don't find it "fun" when their empire is destroyed upon succession.

Overall they are implemented with a dynasty structure (as in, future generations are meant to build upon their parents) while they should have been implemented purely as a moment in time for one dude. All their mechanics should be tied up to how insane a leader is at a specific moment, scaling up on a curve so that soon as you get a really good ruler, they start snowballing like crazy, but soon as he loses some stats (with age, accidents, etc) or the next dude is not as good, it comes crashing down immediately and you're back to a single province clan faster than you can say "horse shit!".

I think a break up on succession is a great idea, as long as it's done better than awful Elective Gavelkind. I think the reason that so many players have a problem with realm shake ups on succession is because of the way that EG works... or doesn't work, usually. If I had some way to manipulate who gets what, or at least UNDERSTAND who gets what, I'd love Elective, and regular, Gavelkind and honestly look forward to what the succession brings. Instead I completely loathe them and dread having more than 1 son.

 

[Drake_Hound]

The thing is, right now writing a guide to how to play nomads as good as possible is:

1) Buy 150HC/100LC with your money. Do not get side tracked with foolishness like horse archers or any other troop type. I don't care that you are altaic. HC >>>> HA regardless.
2) Build temples everywhere.
3) See step 1 and 2 and don't waiver. No horse archers! None!

With the above strategy you will win whatever challenge you put out to accomplish. Wanna invade ERE? After a stack of 10K (6K HC and 4K LC) you are ready. Wanna take on the caliph? Sure, why not. Both at the same time? Take a stack of 15K instead. Nothing they can muster will defeat 9K HC + 6K LC. Upkeep for the army? Five sacks of wheat and a moldy side of beef should do it. Think it's gamey to only buy best troop types? What the hell am I supposed to do? Buy useless horse archers instead when the best retinue ever seen in this game costs 75g/pop? The OP (original poster) asked if nomads are a tad op (overpowered) at the moment. The answer is that they are the most op thing I ever seen in this game and by a wide margin. I play single player so I don't really care if they are nerfed or not.

This has been since the start of CK2 when I joined, always some form of retinue ontop of the pile. English Archers retinue reigned suprme for a long time.
Before that it was the cathapract of Byzantium empire. and each time you nerf something, something else will come out on top.
If you game that way, you will always find the most OP combination that works, I just know Heavy Cavalery and Heavy Infantery are currently OP.
But that is again temporary, light camels were OP, and another day Elephants will be so OP that 30 elephants will crush 5k troops. cause the rest gotten nerfed.

I think HC needs to be looked at again compared to the others. but that again leads to another unit becoming OP.

 

[Dracko81]

The thing is, right now writing a guide to how to play nomads as good as possible is:

1) Buy 150HC/100LC with your money. Do not get side tracked with foolishness like horse archers or any other troop type. I don't care that you are altaic. HC >>>> HA regardless.
2) Build temples everywhere.
3) See step 1 and 2 and don't waiver. No horse archers! None!

With the above strategy you will win whatever challenge you put out to accomplish. Wanna invade ERE? After a stack of 10K (6K HC and 4K LC) you are ready. Wanna take on the caliph? Sure, why not. Both at the same time? Take a stack of 15K instead. Nothing they can muster will defeat 9K HC + 6K LC. Upkeep for the army? Five sacks of wheat and a moldy side of beef should do it. Think it's gamey to only buy best troop types? What the hell am I supposed to do? Buy useless horse archers instead when the best retinue ever seen in this game costs 75g/pop? The OP (original poster) asked if nomads are a tad op (overpowered) at the moment. The answer is that they are the most op thing I ever seen in this game and by a wide margin. I play single player so I don't really care if they are nerfed or not.

Oh please, using exploits like the temples to not have other clans is silly and suggesting it as a strategy is pointless. You will be wasting your time since it will be fixed. Temples are far too expensive to be built if you actually play something like the Mongols in the CM start. Your strategy will not work, you will get absorbed as soon as the AI succeeds, unless you are in a position to resist.

Once you can rule any kingdom sized realm in the game, you are typically unstoppable by the AI anyway.

Also if you want the best troops, invade India and move your capital. Mongol Zunist Elephant hordes.

 

[bkerns]

The thing is, right now writing a guide to how to play nomads as good as possible is:

1) Buy 150HC/100LC with your money. Do not get side tracked with foolishness like horse archers or any other troop type. I don't care that you are altaic. HC >>>> HA regardless.
2) Build temples everywhere.
3) See step 1 and 2 and don't waiver. No horse archers! None!

With the above strategy you will win whatever challenge you put out to accomplish. Wanna invade ERE? After a stack of 10K (6K HC and 4K LC) you are ready. Wanna take on the caliph? Sure, why not. Both at the same time? Take a stack of 15K instead. Nothing they can muster will defeat 9K HC + 6K LC. Upkeep for the army? Five sacks of wheat and a moldy side of beef should do it. Think it's gamey to only buy best troop types? What the hell am I supposed to do? Buy useless horse archers instead when the best retinue ever seen in this game costs 75g/pop? The OP (original poster) asked if nomads are a tad op (overpowered) at the moment. The answer is that they are the most op thing I ever seen in this game and by a wide margin. I play single player so I don't really care if they are nerfed or not.

Temples no longer prevent clans from wanting land in the beta patch.

 

[Zsrai]

You don't even need money, just get 250 LC for 10 prestige. You can "upgrade" to the 75g HC/LC horde after you stockpile some cash, or maybe even relocate your Khaganate to Western/Southern Europe for the pure HC horde.

 

[hvald]

Temples no longer prevent clans from wanting land in the beta patch.

Funny, I installed the beta. Didn't see any change in clan behavior (or rather didn't have any other clans). But it doesn't matter. You will get your knights anyways and the upkeep is laughable. I'm sure things will be fixed but right now (in latest beta as well), nomads are retardedly op.

Edit: Absorb clans till you are alone and temple trick works like a charm (did a quick test). Nevertheless, this is a "feature" that will be patched out I'm sure.

 

[Finnway]

Some things should be changed but please, pretty please paradox: Nomads are fine (when not a 2k+ hour player plays them!)

2,000 hours? More like 200. I have 400 hours logged in Crusader Kings 2 and I could easily repeat OP's results if I owned the DLC. Crusader Kings 2 isn't hard once you understand the basics.

Make steppe armies less effective in non-steppe regions just like they were historically. Perhaps make skirmish phase and pursuit phase vary by terrain - less in close terrain and higher in wide open spaces.

March an army of heavy infantry into the steppes and die without ever coming into contact, march your horse archers to Campus Mauriacus and lose to close quarters infantry.

This is a great idea.

 

[Maegras]

People are using exploits over and over and then they cry "X is OP, please nerf", plain stupid.

Once you can rule any kingdom sized realm in the game, you are typically unstoppable by the AI anyway.

Yes, yes, yes, yes im so happy to see there are other people who are making sense with their comments. Thank you.

Edit: Nomads need nerf OFCOURSE but we they dont need to be smashed with -X% modifier everywhere.
Give us more challanging sucsession laws, increase & decrease time spent on skirmish/melee phases depends on terrain.

Edit2: Also give us somewhat slider thing for hordes/retuines that wont allow people to use monotype armies.

 

[TheDungen]

I think they should design the horde 'retinues' as a rock paper scissor thing. Heavy and light cavalery to counter other people's horse archers, horse archers when fighting the footslogging soldiers of other goverment types.