• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

unmerged(8642)

El Caudillito
Apr 9, 2002
216
0
Visit site
I was wondering if we could get a little more information on the roles of the 4 groups of society in the provinces. Does each group affect every area. Militarily I know with more nobles you'll probably have more cavalry, and more peasants would mean more infantry or archers. What about the burghers and clergy, do they take away from your numbers, add different sorts of troops, maybe more mercenaries if there are a lot of burghers. Economically I guess more burghers would be better but what would more clergy give you, better piety points?
 

Winkelried

Colonel
52 Badges
May 9, 2001
929
0
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Age of Wonders
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Sword of the Stars
  • 500k Club
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
Let's start guessing:

Military:

nobles: cavalry
burghers: siege train, navy, infantry
peasants: infantry
clerics: guys with clubs, "medics"

Production:

nobles: don't work if you don't consider war a product
burghers: refined/trade goods
peasants: food, raw materials
clerics: dont't work if you don't consider spiritual welfare a product

Society:

nobles: maintain law and order (or engage in feuds), prestige
burghers: crafts, trade, research
peasants:
clerics: piety/spiritual welfare, research (in monasteries), education, health care, charity
 

unmerged(485)

Advocatus Sancti Sepulcri
Nov 24, 2000
9.971
0
Keeping them all happy so as to maximize your income without being caught short of loyal troops should play a major part in realm management.:)
 

unmerged(8642)

El Caudillito
Apr 9, 2002
216
0
Visit site
yeah, but how do you do that? Obviously you can't please everyone all the time. I think i'm going to try and focus on the nobility and clergy myself since this is in feudal times, though i would like a big enough serf, i mean peasant, population to fill my coffers and enlarge my armies with.
 

Winkelried

Colonel
52 Badges
May 9, 2001
929
0
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Age of Wonders
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Sword of the Stars
  • 500k Club
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
Machiavelli said it's better to please the people than the nobility.

1. There are many more people than nobles.
2. Nobles are never satisfied no matter how much they get. The more they have the more they want. People usually only want justice/good treatment and not too high taxes.
 

Faeelin

Field Marshal
79 Badges
Dec 15, 2001
7.280
2.469
Visit site
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Surviving Mars
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Darkest Hour
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • For The Glory
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • March of the Eagles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Victoria 2
Of course. The burghers make the goods, trade the goods, and defend the goods. The peasants grow the raw materials for the goods and provide cannon fodder for the burghers to defend with.

The nobles and clerics do what again?
 

Havard

Dark Power
49 Badges
Jun 28, 2001
15.686
170
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Cities: Skylines - Campus
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • 500k Club
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis III: Collection
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
Originally posted by Faeelin
Of course. The burghers make the goods, trade the goods, and defend the goods. The peasants grow the raw materials for the goods and provide cannon fodder for the burghers to defend with.

The nobles and clerics do what again?
Nobles = knights

Clerics = religious and medical care?
 

unmerged(485)

Advocatus Sancti Sepulcri
Nov 24, 2000
9.971
0
Originally posted by MacRobert
Nobles+clergy= Crusaders!

Might need to throw in a few peasants to get some infantry for your crusade.:)

Perhaps pleasing the burghers will get you better trade taxes.
 

unmerged(3420)

Europa Universalis Boardgamer
Apr 27, 2001
1.038
2
Visit site
Hey, hey, hey; I think "clerics" are getting a raw deal in this discussion.

For centuries priests were the only literate members of society. All records, accounts, literary works, and legal documents were kept in the hands of the Church. "Curia" is Latin for Court (both royal and judicial; they were originally a single entity); and it's not for nothing that in Modern English "clerical" means office/paperwork-type employment.

Also, any student of medieval culture (not that you need a PhD; just visit any museum that includes medieval works) will notice the almost universal reliance on religious themes in artwork. All paintings, statues, plays, books, works of architecture, etc. had a religious theme. The only patron of the arts during the Middle Ages was the Catholic Church. The very existance of a "European" culture, with consistant norms and standards across the continent, was a product of the Catholic Church's organization and ideology.

Society paid a price for such a monopoly, true. Even the Bible was kept from the populace, on the grounds that ordinary people lacked the education to work out the "true meaning" for themselves. But the priesthood provided the only career path for people with more brain than brawn, at least until the Italian Republics (and their parallels in Barcelona, Flanders and the Hanse) made it acceptable to work with your mind and make some money.

At the beginning of Crusader Kings, a strong clergy would discourage banditry, promote the arts, and preserve learning. Later, as the Church becomes a victim of the Babylonian Exile Popes, and the Great Schism, clergy should be of less benefit and come at a greater cost. But room must be made for them; they defined "Latin" culture, after all.
 

Aetius

Nitpicker
15 Badges
Jan 11, 2001
9.204
1
Visit site
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Majesty 2 Collection
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Sengoku
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • 500k Club
  • Hearts of Iron II: Beta
Originally posted by Winkelried
Machiavelli said it's better to please the people than the nobility.

1. There are many more people than nobles.
2. Nobles are never satisfied no matter how much they get. The more they have the more they want. People usually only want justice/good treatment and not too high taxes.

But his ideas are based on the realities within a Renaissance Italian free city. Things might have been different elsewhere... He also expresses different ideas depending on if you read the Prince or the Discourses
 

Duritz

Defense Minister, Socialist Republic of Australia
64 Badges
Jan 1, 2002
1.493
471
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Pride of Nations
  • Europa Universalis: Rome Collectors Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • 500k Club
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • BATTLETECH
  • Steel Division: Normand 44 Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Steel Division: Normand 44 - Second Wave
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44 -  Back to Hell
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Cities in Motion
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • East India Company
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron Anthology
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • March of the Eagles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Semper Fi
  • Sengoku
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
Originally posted by Aetius


But his ideas are based on the realities within a Renaissance Italian free city. Things might have been different elsewhere... He also expresses different ideas depending on if you read the Prince or the Discourses

Macca was definately a man of his times but I think his theories are still valid in this debate.

Forget the Prince, it was a twisted theory he sent to please his new ruler and to try to get back in the good books. The Discourses was the real deal!
 

Endre Fodstad

Colonel
23 Badges
Feb 6, 2000
1.142
3
Visit site
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
Originally posted by crooktooth
But the priesthood provided the only career path for people with more brain than brawn, at least until the Italian Republics (and their parallels in Barcelona, Flanders and the Hanse) made it acceptable to work with your mind and make some money.

Of course, you could also go to the universities of most major cities to study law (post-renaissance you could also study history and philology) outside the church, at least from the early 13th century. Or become an architect and build nice churches and chateaus, etc etc. But we'll just have to give the church its due in shaping, preserving and promoting latin culture. And thank its philosophical members for being the firmament for the ideas of reason, something those grubby little backwards-looking italians had little to do with:D

EF
 

unmerged(3420)

Europa Universalis Boardgamer
Apr 27, 2001
1.038
2
Visit site
Originally posted by Endre Fodstad


Of course, you could also go to the universities of most major cities to study law (post-renaissance you could also study history and philology) outside the church, at least from the early 13th century. Or become an architect and build nice churches and chateaus, etc etc. But we'll just have to give the church its due in shaping, preserving and promoting latin culture. And thank its philosophical members for being the firmament for the ideas of reason, something those grubby little backwards-looking italians had little to do with:D

EF

The medieval universities were considered religious institutions, and were under the jurisdiction of clerical law. Most law studies on offer were in canon law, the law of the Church.

Similarly, the most gifted architects worked for the Church, designing cathederals, churches and monastaries. Chateaux were usually military in nature (until the 15th century); palaces as such didn't appear until about the same time.

It's just hard for members of a modern, secular society to fathom how synonymous religion and culture were. It wasn't like the Pope had a KGB enforcing a single point of view. It was as if there was only one point of view. Dissent wasn't repressed so much as it was nonexistant. The Renaissance really did amount to a revolution in thought.
 

unmerged(9167)

Imperator Universalis
May 4, 2002
1.339
0
Visit site
Yeah, the church were the only one to write so that they could easily suppress several books. I will concertate on people, I want to be centralized Empire, nobles were the reason that HRE break up, I want to avoid that! Emperor of HRE worked too hard to please noble and look where it gonna him! I agree with the idea of 4 estates. It will make the game more realistic.
 

unmerged(8642)

El Caudillito
Apr 9, 2002
216
0
Visit site
"The only patron of the arts during the Middle Ages was the Catholic Church." ????

No, just the only thing the Catholic Church allowed as far as art, books, etc was religious material. They only allowed people to read religious material so its no surprise the vast majority of literate people were priests. Yeah alot of good thing happened because of the catholic church but so did a lot of bad things. There probably was a lot more art and literature that existed back then but we dont know about it because it wasnt kept like the religous stuff and probably burned as heretical stuff every now and then.
 

Winkelried

Colonel
52 Badges
May 9, 2001
929
0
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Age of Wonders
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Sword of the Stars
  • 500k Club
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
Originally posted by Zhai
Yeah, the church were the only one to write so that they could easily suppress several books. I will concertate on people, I want to be centralized Empire, nobles were the reason that HRE break up, I want to avoid that! Emperor of HRE worked too hard to please noble and look where it gonna him! I agree with the idea of 4 estates. It will make the game more realistic.

Wow. You want to get rid of nobility. Be prepared for some serious trouble. Guess that's exactly what the people at paradox call "playing out of character" and being considered a weirdo.

crooktooth:

You're absolutely right. I tried to give them credit in my first post, while guessing what every part of the population affects the kingdom. Of course your post is much more accurate.
 

unmerged(9167)

Imperator Universalis
May 4, 2002
1.339
0
Visit site
It is not out of character, after all, some of ruler tried to be centralized ruler look at Spider King. That is not weirdo, just challenger.

That will be very hard!
 

Endre Fodstad

Colonel
23 Badges
Feb 6, 2000
1.142
3
Visit site
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
Originally posted by crooktooth


The medieval universities were considered religious institutions, and were under the jurisdiction of clerical law. Most law studies on offer were in canon law, the law of the Church.

Of course, the studium generale(what "universities" were called in the high middle ages) could be a exclusively religious institution, but more often as not(as in Bologna) it was run by a council of students, or(As Paris or Oxford) by a guild of instructors. Usually, the larger universities existed under they're own set of codes and laws, usually based on canon law but set apart from it in agreement witht the city in which it resided. The older schools were indeed based in monastries, but in the flowering of the studium generale(13th century), most of them, though usually centered around a cathedral(excepting italian municipal schools, based in the individual city-states), were not overly more more religous than the rest of medieval society. (which, as you've already correctly remarked, in out eyes would seem very religious). Indeed, the SG held close ties to the intellectuals in the church (the students in Paris were summoned to studies by the tolling of the bells of the Notre Dame, a great many of the teachers were churchmen), but this was only to be expected since it grew out of the older tradition of schools. This intermingling of the church in the learning institutions would carry on for several hundred years after the renaissance, and in many cases continues today.

However, to state that canon law was the sole focus of law studies is a gross overexaggaration. "Roman" law was studied extensively from the late 12th century onwards, and secular(that is, not _within_ the church) careers in medicine were also possible.

Religious dissent was very common thorough the middle ages, but I presume you mean objections against the church from grounds of reason or atheistic views. This was not something the italian renaissance brought. *Renaissance Humanism concisted of an increased emphasis on the humanities, that is, classical languages and literature, precise expression, historical scholarship, and the arts*(sic Hollister,1994). The renaissance humanists looked to the older classical ideas and the classical culture as a whole, rather than as a set of ideas one might use. In this they were different from the older scholars. They did not, as a whole, reject religion and indeed retained a great many "medieval" characteristics. Savaronala was a child of the renaissance as much as Da Vinci.

When it comes to the ideas of reason, opposing views on religion, and the beginning growth of secular literature, that is something that came solidly from the middle ages. Peter Abelard, Hildegard of Bingen, Robert Grosseteste, Roger Bacon and William of Ockham were medieval thinkers, rationalists, and in some cases, as Ockham, proponents of the idea that the study of God must be based on faith alone and the study of the natural world must be based on observation.
Villon, Chaucer and Christine de Pisan all wrote "secular" literature in the pre-renaissance period. All these people were firmly religious, just as the renaissance thinkers were. Reason and religion did not seriously come into conflict before the 17th century.

EF
 

unmerged(6159)

Field Marshal
Oct 23, 2001
9.458
1
Visit site
Thomas Aquinas!