Noble Republic

[unmerged(63836)]

Here's my proposition of changes to Noble Republic style of government. It would be essential for interesting play as Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth (on which this type of government is based), but could also apply to other countries - after all this game is about alternate history, who knows who could become a Noble Republic.

Name captures idea behind this type of government pretty well - social class of nobility (lesser and higher) enjoyed various privileges, controlled parliament, and elected king. While historically this system was beneficial at first (country was kept stable by content ruling class, and foreign nobles were looking forward to join Noble Republic since it gave them privileged status), it gradually decomposed central authority to the point almost anarchy, when foreign powers could easily spread their influence among nobles that they could 'buy'.

Why was that so?

- each newly elected king had to confirm existing privileges
- nobility could legally oppose king who violated these privileges through armed rebellion (see Rokosz)
- to raise taxes, wage offensive war, or pass political changes, king required consent of Parliment
- to gain this consent, kings often had to offer Nobles additional priviledges


As you can see, it is no wonder that with each new king, royal power grew weak - and so did Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. To reverse this process of political decomposition, would require very talented king, lots of prestige, strong backing from either - foreign power, some of Nobility, or other classes (like Cities).

Now, how to implement it.

We'll need some way to measure power of nobility vs power of the king. This modifier could be somehow tied to aristocracy and decentralisation sliders or not, and would give following changes (severity dependent on it's level):

- reduced income
- reduced manpower during peacetime
- reduced force limits during peacetime
- constant modifier forbidding declaring war (something like always active truce, or complete lack of Casus Beli)

At high levels of Noble Power these should be really severe, in 18th century Poland something like 1/10th of income, mapower, and forcelimits


Now, to actually interact as a player, I think that following decisions could fit in:

- Offer more privileges- Stability +5, but also increase in Noble Power

- Limit privileges - reduced Noble Power, but triggers civil war event chain. Size of rebellion should be reduced by high Prestige and Diplomacy of monarch

- Call Noble Levy en Masse - only available during defensive war - spawns loads of free armies, but increases Noble Power. (see here for Pospolite Ruszenie)

- Ask Nobles for permission for War - lunches an event, that may temporarily lift Noble Power modifier, thus enabling player to declare war. Chances dependent on Prestige, Diplomacy, and if possible - neighbour with very low relations. Increases Noble Power.



That's it. If possible to implement, it would make for much better experience while playing a Noble Republic. It surely would be chalenging, but also quite realistic. When it comes to AI, it should in general increase Noble Power more and more with passage of time. But to simulate ability to defend itself, it would use 'Call Noble Levy en Masse' decision. Also, ideally there could be also loads of random events - private wars between Magnates, Magnate raided neighbour which may lead to war, Noble's rebel to depose low stat king, Parliment decides to XYZ etc.

One more thing that could be in - ability to elect same religion foreign monarch, leading to Personal Union while he lives would be nice. Not sure how AI logic behind the choice could be implemented though.

Thoughts?

 

[takedown47]

after reading ths I realise this game needs a social class system where each country has 4 factions, nobility, clergy, merchants and peasants which struggle for power. noble republics would need a feature like this to be really fun, in my opinion.

 

[unmerged(63836)]

after reading ths I realise this game needs a social class system where each country has 4 factions, nobility, clergy, merchants and peasants which struggle for power. noble republics would need a feature like this to be really fun, in my opinion.

Yeah, factions could abstract a lot of things like revolutions, social changes and frictions between classes, etc.

Unfortunately, Magna Mundi had factions, and devs said that they'll not include any of MM ideas.

 

[Killzerslaul]

Unfortunately, Magna Mundi had factions, and devs said that they'll not include any of MM ideas.

MM did not invent the concept of social classes. It would not be difficult to represent them without copying MM's system, as MM's representation is very basic.
In fact, CK1, long before even EU3 was released had a system very similar to MM's national faction system, except on a provincial level. If Paradox truly wanted to implement some kind of game mechanic for factions/social classes, I don't think concerns about copying MM would be much of an issue. However, I don't think they will implement such a mechanic because it would either be superficial and not worthy of a game mechanic or complex and another difficult aspect for the developers to balance and players to micromanage.

However, I imagine there will be some events and decisions related to this sort of thing, and it will be easy for someone to mod a detailed system to represent internal power balance with events and nation modifiers.

 

[unmerged(63836)]

MM did not invent the concept of social classes. It would not be difficult to represent them without copying MM's system, as MM's representation is very basic.
In fact, CK1, long before even EU3 was released had a system very similar to MM's national faction system, except on a provincial level. If Paradox truly wanted to implement some kind of game mechanic for factions/social classes, I don't think concerns about copying MM would be much of an issue. However, I don't think they will implement such a mechanic because it would either be superficial and not worthy of a game mechanic or complex and another difficult aspect for the developers to balance and players to micromanage.

However, I imagine there will be some events and decisions related to this sort of thing, and it will be easy for someone to mod a detailed system to represent internal power balance with events and nation modifiers.

Yeah, you're probably right - especially in light of devs saying that game would not be more complex.

However, maybe more impact from sliders with associated events or event chains could be enough to abstract factions?

 

[takedown47]

Factions would make the game really cool. A shame they are allergic to anything that smells like magna mundi.

 

[Eh up me duck]

Factions would make the game really cool. A shame they are allergic to anything that smells like magna mundi.

Because Magna Mundi was by the fans for the fans. "Gameplay" rarely entered into it.

 

[unmerged(63836)]

Because Magna Mundi was by the fans for the fans. "Gameplay" rarely entered into it.

It was great concept though - instead of random (build fort, build army, conquer X) mission from EU3, you would get mission from one of the factions. Whether you accomplish it or not, had effect on their mood and influence. Such mechanic could abstract everything, from troubles Ottomans had with Jannissaries, through growing discontent in France that led to revolution, to powerful nobles of Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, providing rich game-play and flavour to every country, even most insignificant one. If paradox wanted to, they could easily make well balanced, 'lite' version of such system.

 

[takedown47]

I still like magna mundi's idea.

 

[apsycobear]

Faction's wouldn't make the game all that more complex, they would add depth and open up a lot of new possibilities. Just because the idea was implemented in another game, one which I think the devs would prefer us not bring up, doesn't mean they can't be used in this game. It's not so much as taking the games ideas as it is taking a VERY good idea that another game happened to use.

 

[BjornB]

Feel free to discuss the idea. Whetever it was "a feature in MM" is an irrelevant argument so please leave it out of the discussion and keep on topic.

Best Regards

 

[Johan]

after reading ths I realise this game needs a social class system where each country has 4 factions, nobility, clergy, merchants and peasants which struggle for power. noble republics would need a feature like this to be really fun, in my opinion.

We've done a few games with factions like that.. Svea Rike and Ck1 as examples.

 

[unmerged(63836)]

In that case - it would be great to have factions in EU4! Also Victoria 1-2 counts a very complex simulator of different social classes with it's PoP system.


Another benefit of having factions, is that they could give a context to rebellions. For example, PLC would have very strong Noble faction, thus reducing Aristocracy or Decentralisation slider would naturally make them angry, leading to revolt. Or if while playing Venice that conquered chunks of land in the Balkans, I may start to go for Aristocracy slider, thus undermining merchants - and eventually evolving into Noble Republic. If I started to enforce serfdom in 17th century England, it would make commoners rise against me, etc. It would make processes that shaped political and societal evolution, more fleshed out, as compared to EU3's slider changes that triggered only 1 event of quite minor impact. Also, player would know what caused revolts - not some random or historical event, but the fact that he was constantly pissing off that one powerful faction in his country. It could enhance interaction that player has with his own country, since IMO peacetime gameplay in EU3 is lacking, as compared to CK or Victoria.

 

[Grubnessul]

We've done a few games with factions like that.. Svea Rike and Ck1 as examples.

And EU:Rome.

 

[apg]

We've done a few games with factions like that.. Svea Rike and Ck1 as examples.

does that mean your 'prepping/developing' a factions system for EU4???

I sure hope so!

 

[Norpheus]

A faction system like this would enable me to convince a lot more friends to try the game. Questions and systems of society are interesting and give historical and realistic debt. It would be an even greater improvement to the series than the new trade system (yes I say so without even trying it, trade is trade but society is EVERYTHING). I can just imagine how epic it would be to see how different forms of government rely on different classes, and how each system has its benefits and negatives, all by the whip of time. Merchant states, Noble states, Absolute monarchy/democracy (I guess is the first to truly take advance of the huge lower classes and therefore be so succesfull), not to forget theocracies. Even the clergies have their own form of goverment.

I guess Warfaring factions like Varangians and Cossacks could use the same system below the military bar to avoid to much complexity for the new players. Favoritism gives strength, stability and loyalty, but the one to master them all trough cunning and risk is the one to win the game of thrones. I smell greatness. Special units really would make EU more fun to play, there is a certain tingle when you know you are calling in the elites. Or putting their head on spikes, for that matter.

 

[unmerged(63836)]

I guess Warfaring factions like Varangians and Cossacks could use the same system below the military bar to avoid to much complexity for the new players. Favoritism gives strength, stability and loyalty, but the one to master them all trough cunning and risk is the one to win the game of thrones. I smell greatness. Special units really would make EU more fun to play, there is a certain tingle when you know you are calling in the elites. Or putting their head on spikes, for that matter.

Yeah - carefully playing one faction against other, trying not to make any of the factions too powerful despite tempting short term benefits, becoming a hostage of a faction and trying to overcome their influence, keeping balance of power, or favouring one group to the max to see where it would lead - if done well, it would be quite fascinating gaming experience.

And yeah - I think that adding Military and Bureaucratic factions would be good. Firstone could emulate mentioned Cossacks, Streltsy, Janissaries or situation in late game Prussia. Another one could emulate new growing influential social group, that while beneficial, can also become overgrown and corrupt.

 

[apg]

if done well, it would be quite fascinating gaming experience.

hear hear!

 

[Closet Skeleton]

PLC isn't the only 'noble republic'. I actually think more of Italy when I hear the term. One of the main problems for me playing as Tuscany is that there wasn't any sense of their being continuity and powerful families that continued across the generations, the princes were all from random families. Something to represent dynasties like the Medici would be great.

 

[unmerged(463662)]

The main question is: how easy is the game for a newbie to learn. There's already a huge learning curve, which is good in that it adds depth to the game, but at which point does the learning curve actually detract from the game experience?