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Originally posted by stnylan
A little trivia on the question
Sometimes Duchies and Principalities are called Dukedoms and Princedoms respectively. I know that is not modern parlance, but 500+ years ago the terminology was a little less exact
Two others
Archduke - Archduchy
Great-Count - Great-County
The latter is slightly obscure, I only know of one state that maintained the title in all of history (Sicily before it became a Kingdom). The former was mostly restricted the Germany I believe.
Oh,
Elector - Electorate
Another of those wonderful HRE situations.
Incidentally, sometimes you will hear a marquis being associated with a 'marquisite'. (sp?)
Also their is a complication that until *relatively* recently the word 'prince' meant, in addition to the other meaning, simply a monarchical ruler (because of the Roman precedent). Hence 'The Prince' by Machiaevelli and the fact that a number of monarchs might refer to themselves as being 'Princes' - like Elizabeth I (and she called herself a Prince, NOT a Princess).
Prince is confusing. Most of the English-speaking world understands this to mean the son/heir of the king. But in the Empire, not only was there the "royal" Prince (Prinz), but there was also the "noble" Prince (Furst), meaning I think what you hinted "First Among Equals" (Prima Inter Pares).
A Furst was anyone who held land directly from the King/Emperor, so all his chief vassals were Reichsfursten, "Imperial Princes", which basically included the Dukes, Margraves, & Count Palatines.
Those Imperial Princes who could vote in royal elections were the Kurfursten, or "Electoral Princes", commonly called the Electors.
To confuse matters further, the Imperial/Electoral Princes were further subdivided into Secular Princes (Weltliche Fursten) & Ecclesiastical Princes (Geistliche Fursten).
In order of precedence:
Archduke (Erzherzog)
Grand Duke (Grossherzog)
Duke (Herzog)
In the Empire, Duke was originally the highest rank of nobility; all Dukes were Imperial Princes, and the 4 "Tribal" Dukes (Franconia, Saxony, Swabia, Bavaria) were the original secular Electors.
Archduke was first used in reference to Otto I the Great's brother, Archbishop Bruno of Cologne, who was "Archidux" over both Duchies of Lower & Upper Lotharingia (954-965). It didnt become an "official" title until the Archdukes of Austria reinvented it (1364); they were the most powerful house in Germany at the time, but didnt hold an Electorate, so they used "Archduke" to make them equal to the Electors. Since they also held more than one Duchy (which seems to be why Bruno was called Archduke), they had an excuse.
I dont know anything about "Grand Duke" except that it was a very late additon (16th c. or after) and largely honorary, at least in Germany.
Now that we are at it, could anyone explain to me a bit or two about the french princely title. In the Netherlands of around 1550, there was a nobleman called William of Nassau, prince of Orange. How much was that title worth? Where there many princes in France? How large were their territories and whom did they, if at all, answer to? This asked, because of the much more centralised state that France was, compared to the HRE.
I dont understand what half of these titles mean, like what is a Duke exactly? Is it a bought title for a Duchy? or Hereditory? And things like Viscount's and Barons, what are the meaning of these titles? were they bound to a King or Emperor?
All of these titles originally had to be earned, but as time went by, they became heraditory. As stated before, a duke was the highest leader of a tribe (usually in times of war). He was chosen because he was the bravest man of the tribe and therfor most capable of leading the 'troops'. Later on, they wanted to make sure of their sons future, and therefor they made the title heraditory. The first system, at least theoratically, remained in place for the holy roman emperor untill the fall of the empire in 1806. Eventually all the nobleman in the empire were supposed to answer to the emperor.
A viscount, or burggraaf as we call it in the Netherlands, was originally a nobleman of the castle. If I am not mistaken it is the next title after baron, which is thus slightly lower. But this is not really my field of expertise, so I am waiting for replies from people with more knowledge on the subject.
A viscount, or burggraaf as we call it in the Netherlands, was originally a nobleman of the castle. If I am not mistaken it is the next title after baron, which is thus slightly lower. But this is not really my field of expertise, so I am waiting for replies from people with more knowledge on the subject.
That a Friherre in eveyday communcation is addressed as Baron, may tip you ofOriginally posted by Arilou
Hehe... Swedish once then
Hertig (duke) - Hertigdöme
Greve (count) - Grevskap
Friherre (no idea what that is actually equivalent to) - No idea what it's called either... But then sweden never evolved a feudal hierarchy in the same way the rest of Europe did...
. Friherre is eqvivalent with Baron and a Barony in swedish is called a Baroni (but they did as you mentioned hardly exist in Sweden, I only knows about one ).Can also be mentioned that, we not have heritary dukes. The children of the King got that title but there children become "mere" counts if I recall correctly.
http://www.hostkingdom.net/glossary.html
This site is quite good, it has a glossary of titles, european and non european.
This site is quite good, it has a glossary of titles, european and non european.
Sharif / Sherif is a title of a respected leader,
less powerful than a sultan or a malek.
Sultan = He who has authority
Malek = He who has ownership
Both Sultan and Malek are for western purposes, Kings.
Pasha (or Basha) and Bey (or Beg) are Turkish, not
Arabic, and IIRC they were based in the tribal military
roles and postitions. Need to look that up, though.
Any Turks know the literal meanings offhand?
--- Ank
So deswpite the difference in structure between France and the HRE, the title of prince ment the same? Does the house of Orange still have 'the legal right' to wear the name 'of Orange'? I mean, i bet the king of France took that title away ages ago.
So despite the difference in structure between France and the HRE, the title of prince ment the same?
It would make it slightly higher than baron, between baron and Count (Graf) as far as I can see.Originally posted by Tomas van Quint
...A viscount, or burggraaf as we call it in the Netherlands, was originally a nobleman of the castle. If I am not mistaken it is the next title after baron, which is thus slightly lower. But this is not really my field of expertise, so I am waiting for replies from people with more knowledge on the subject.
A visicount means basically "Vice-Count"
A Burgraff or Burgrave is oringally a German title which means a Graff with primarily Urban teritory, a Graff is Basically a Count.
Visicount is now used as the fourth grade of nobility, so it goes like this.
Count or or Graf and all the other Grafs (ie. Altgraf, Burgrave (Burggraf) Landgraf, Wildgraf)
Visicount
Baron
A Burgraff or Burgrave is oringally a German title which means a Graff with primarily Urban teritory, a Graff is Basically a Count.
Visicount is now used as the fourth grade of nobility, so it goes like this.
Count or or Graf and all the other Grafs (ie. Altgraf, Burgrave (Burggraf) Landgraf, Wildgraf)
Visicount
Baron
Yes, but by some Burgraf is considered lower than Graf and as such considered equal to Vicomte.
Burgraf is lower than a normal Graf. Burgraf usually worked for somebody else and his office wasnt necessarily hereditary, so youre right, more equivalent to a Viscount than a Count.
The Principality of Orange was located in the Kingdom of Burgundy, so originally in an "imperial" area. Even in non-imperial lands, it was possible to be a non-"royal" Prince, such as the Princes of Taranto, Princes of Antioch, etc.
And the difference between France & Germany wasnt as big as youd think, at least at first, since titles in both were based on Carolingian system.
I thought a "plain" Prince aka Furst, was the lowest form of ruling nobility in the HRE.