About as laughable as every single city being able to build all the supplies needed by the various land, air and naval units a country has. Most cities, while generating quite a bit of IC, do NOT build military supplies of any kind, both now and in 1936.
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About as laughable as every single city being able to build all the supplies needed by the various land, air and naval units a country has. Most cities, while generating quite a bit of IC, do NOT build military supplies of any kind, both now and in 1936.
Trying to convince you of anything would be a sure sign that I've gone mad. It's clear to just about everyone here that the only voice you listen to is your own. I argue against your system to show others that it's a waste of time and wouldn't solve the supply bugs that can only be fixed by Paradox.
I meant what I said. Sending you a save game is useless because you're utterly powerless to change the supply system in any way, shape or form. Until and if Paradox hires you, that won't change. You'll still be "just some guy".
Like strategic strikes, they do far too much damage to be considered even remotely realistic. Surely you've noticed that a wing of strategic bombers can flatten a city in one go? As they stand, when it comes to strategic and logistical strikes, they might as well being carrying nukes - and a lot of nukes, since one nuke wouldn't do much of anything to the infrastructure of an entire province.
Having read through all this, I'd have to say Kuciwalker's convinced me that buildable supply depots are the only sensible option. His hopelessly muddled arguments against it really do illustrate the advantages it would give, especially compared to a hopelessly CPU-intensive supply-from-IC-model.
I particularly like it when he does 4-5 consecutive posts, replying to everyone who would dare to slight him, AND WHEN HE TALKS IN CAPITALS TO SHOW HE'S EITHER REALLY PISSED OFF, OR THAT HE HIT CAPSLOCK INSTEAD OF 'A' EARLIER IN THE SENTENCE.
If I'm really lucky, this post might even attaract a 'you're an idiot' reply. IN CAPS.
I particularly like it when he does 4-5 consecutive posts, replying to everyone who would dare to slight him, AND WHEN HE TALKS IN CAPITALS TO SHOW HE'S EITHER REALLY PISSED OFF, OR THAT HE HIT CAPSLOCK INSTEAD OF 'A' EARLIER IN THE SENTENCE.
If I'm really lucky, this post might even attaract a 'you're an idiot' reply. IN CAPS.
Then why do cities have IC at all if they can't even generate supplies? And having all the industry magically spawn supplies in the capital, regardless of distance, without any transport or cost is far far more laughable than having large cities have slightly unrealistically diversified production.
"Slightly unrealistically"? Are you serious? Military construction of any kind, including supplies, is anything but diversified. What is diversified is all the industry that allows the (relatively few) factories to exist in the first place. That is what IC is. You know, the guys who make screwdrivers and rivets, and the trucks to move those screwdrivers and rivets to a factory that smelts iron into usable steel, which is then in turn trucked or railed over to a factory which makes armored plating - along with lunch for the guys at all the factories, the clothes that keep them from wandering about full Monty, and so on.
I agree that supplying everything from the capital is silly. It's equally silly to run pell-mell to the other illogical extreme and turn every city into a completely ahistorical supply center.
But historical or not, what we need is something that works and, I think, something that players will understand. That's why I suggested adding a value to regiments to keep track of how many supplies a division has, thus keeping the supplies with the division, rather than trying to stuff them into provinces and moving the province supply along with the unit. It makes the system simpler, solves a number of problems most of us are experiencing, and is perfectly in line with what the manual says. Thirty-day supply becomes just that, and works as documented. In essence, every division becomes a supply depot, limited to 30 days of supply.
So it can be bombed. Just like in HOI2.
Really though, we've lost track of the important issue here. "Realism" of this method or that method is utterly unimportant, as both methods of generating supplies, either from the capital, or from each and every factory, is nothing more than an abstraction of what truly happens. As such, neither method is really realistic, by design.
The important issue here is processing power required to implement either system. The current system requires little real processing power, but has some weaknesses (cutting off supply to the entire country instantly just by bombing/surrounding the capital). While Kuciwalker's system would require huge amounts of processing power, both for path-finding of supplies, and to determine the amount of supply generated in that province (keep in mind, it would have to constantly be recalculated any time the IC in that province changes, such as strategic bombing).
Neither system is perfect. However, most of the major flaws with the capital supply system could be either totally resolved, or at least severely lessoned by adding supply dumps. But nothing is going to resolve the amount of CPU resources required for Kuciwalker's idea.
So, the real issue at hand, is do we use an extremely CPU intensive solution that will increase the CPU usage on an already ultra-heavy CPU intensive game, which will ultimately result in more lag and more slowdowns, or do we add supply dumps to the current system, and as a result resolve most of the major and minor issues without greatly increasing CPU load?
well you could have multiple "capitals" based on IC, so for each 100IC you get a supply origin. Still that doesnt prevent from bombing to stone age those spots
I do agree that units should carry the 30 day supplies with them, as that is their individual supply dumps, perhaps adding in so if they are forced to retreat they lose a ratio of supplies.
However I don't think it's such a stretch to imagine the Island of Japan producing all the supplies necessary for Air, Navy and land power. Nor is it so unbelievable that a heavily industrialized region would produce all the supplies. The simple fact is, if you had one IC on an island with a tank division on it, unless you have a very high supply slider setting and very good supply tech, you'd still need to import supplies (as 1 IC with a 20% supply slider setting would only produce roughly 1-1.5 supplies, the other 80% would still go toward production).
Japan would still need to send supplies to China, albeit, not as much. Germany would still have to send supplies through Poland, Belorussia over the Urals to reach their forces in Siberia. You'd not have some magic transport chain where 1 IC can be used to produce enough to supply anything more then a militia division, but 10IC could support a corps.
This is a major concern, however Kuciwalker did show some maths and numbers earlier (around 4th post i think?) claiming it would probably only be 20% more intensive. I'm no mathematician or software developer but I think that unless someone can refute this point, it should at the very least be looked into as a possibility, not simply dismissed out of hand as too intensive.
From Kuciwalker:
I'll make it really simple for you. There are two relevant issues:
1) Where do supplies show up on the map?
2) How do they get from where they show up to where they're needed?
The current answer to (1) is "in the capital".
The current answer to (2) is pretty much "the game traces a path for each unit from where the supplies are generated".
This system pretty much works.
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So, the only real issue is 1.
Your solution is to produce supplies in each IC-producing province and have units draw supplies from there.
Your objection to a depot producing supplies is that it's "silly" and "doesn't make much sense because...
ALL OF THE SUPPLIES ULTIMATELY CAME FROM THE FACTORIES."
In the game, all of the tanks, battleships, upgrades, etc. also ultimately come from ICs produced by the factories.
The players can make choices of where to allocate their tanks, battleships, upgrades, etc., so why should they
NOT be allowed to make a choice of where to allocate their supplies?
If I can decentralize my supply stockpile by creating supply "depots" in provinces outside the capital
I can remove the "capital bottleneck". It can be done with your method, which is essentially supply depots in
each IC-producing province or by creating player-allocated depots.
The "depots" don't even have to be "ANOTHER province improvement".They could be icons on the supply map maybe.
And. playing the Devil's Advocate here, if I want to increase my IC production by building factories, and I want to
spread them out to make them less inviting to strategic bombing, I may IC-spam 40 - 50 provinces with one IC each.
That's a lot of supply depots in your system. I believe you referred to this tactic as "retarded".
Peace.
I'll make it really simple for you. There are two relevant issues:
1) Where do supplies show up on the map?
2) How do they get from where they show up to where they're needed?
The current answer to (1) is "in the capital".
The current answer to (2) is pretty much "the game traces a path for each unit from where the supplies are generated".
This system pretty much works.
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So, the only real issue is 1.
Your solution is to produce supplies in each IC-producing province and have units draw supplies from there.
Your objection to a depot producing supplies is that it's "silly" and "doesn't make much sense because...
ALL OF THE SUPPLIES ULTIMATELY CAME FROM THE FACTORIES."
In the game, all of the tanks, battleships, upgrades, etc. also ultimately come from ICs produced by the factories.
The players can make choices of where to allocate their tanks, battleships, upgrades, etc., so why should they
NOT be allowed to make a choice of where to allocate their supplies?
If I can decentralize my supply stockpile by creating supply "depots" in provinces outside the capital
I can remove the "capital bottleneck". It can be done with your method, which is essentially supply depots in
each IC-producing province or by creating player-allocated depots.
The "depots" don't even have to be "ANOTHER province improvement".They could be icons on the supply map maybe.
And. playing the Devil's Advocate here, if I want to increase my IC production by building factories, and I want to
spread them out to make them less inviting to strategic bombing, I may IC-spam 40 - 50 provinces with one IC each.
That's a lot of supply depots in your system. I believe you referred to this tactic as "retarded".
Peace.
That tactic is not a good defense as you'd have to protect many many more provinces from strat bombers instead of concentrating AA and fighters over a smaller area. The bombers could just bomb each province as easily as bombing one many times (infact they would be less prone to stacking penalties if IC were spread compounding this problem). Also it doesn't remove the capital supply problem as supplies would have to travel from the capital to the supply dumps OR if supplies are already "created" at the dumps it would make the whole supply system pointless.
And being Icon on the supply map, if you have to invest in them, they are essentially just another building. And if you don't have to pay from them, they are prone to exploit (eg creating too many in a small area and stock piling masses of resources over time deep in difficult terrain to support massive offensives later on)
And being Icon on the supply map, if you have to invest in them, they are essentially just another building. And if you don't have to pay from them, they are prone to exploit (eg creating too many in a small area and stock piling masses of resources over time deep in difficult terrain to support massive offensives later on)
i've even build a naval base in my game to enable supply for my starving troops
the sad part: it did nothing at all because somehow the AI didn't detect the route, my nearby puppet state did nothing, an airbase did nothing...
eventually i ended up conquering a country i was not even interesting in just to ensure my supplies coming from the homefront rather than from some low infrastructure randomly chosen province.
a bit drastical? well that's how supply system currently seem to work: annex all.
now about the invasion of saudi arabia ... guess i'll need a big lunchbox -you can call it a supply depot- for my troops there because the only positive thing is that my supply throughput research and the naval base there allows my armies to survive longer than the defenders but that still doesn't allow them to move to the capital to annex the nation :rofl:
just saying that the tools for 'realistical' supply are in game it's just the AI does not detect them properly.
the sad part: it did nothing at all because somehow the AI didn't detect the route, my nearby puppet state did nothing, an airbase did nothing...
eventually i ended up conquering a country i was not even interesting in just to ensure my supplies coming from the homefront rather than from some low infrastructure randomly chosen province.
a bit drastical? well that's how supply system currently seem to work: annex all.
now about the invasion of saudi arabia ... guess i'll need a big lunchbox -you can call it a supply depot- for my troops there because the only positive thing is that my supply throughput research and the naval base there allows my armies to survive longer than the defenders but that still doesn't allow them to move to the capital to annex the nation :rofl:
just saying that the tools for 'realistical' supply are in game it's just the AI does not detect them properly.
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Supplies won't just magically appear in these supply dumps. They'll have to be transported there from the capital. So really, I just don't see the problem with spamming supply dumps. If you spam too many, then it will take years to fill them up, which will hold up your offensive and quite possibly give the enemy time to prepare.
If someone wants to spam a dozen supply dumps along the line, let them. With that many, its likely all of the supply dumps will be mostly empty anyway b the time they're needed, and together, won't hold much more, if any more, than a single supply dump would have.
And above all, supply dumps must be removable. Which is why I'm thoroughly against making them a building like an airfield or naval base
"Supplies won't just magically appear in these supply dumps"
How do they magically get to your capital? If you're getting IC from annexed Northern France, how do the supplies created by those ICs appear in Berlin?
I thought of it this way...if you allocate a location to receive supplies (say 10% of your supplies), it starts filling up by magically dropping 10% of each day's output into it. If you want 10% of the supplies from your capital transferred, you'd have to do it by convoy.
How do they magically get to your capital? If you're getting IC from annexed Northern France, how do the supplies created by those ICs appear in Berlin?
I thought of it this way...if you allocate a location to receive supplies (say 10% of your supplies), it starts filling up by magically dropping 10% of each day's output into it. If you want 10% of the supplies from your capital transferred, you'd have to do it by convoy.
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so do you think a big stock of supply is just a heap of boxes dropped somewhere along the road? that doesn't really work when you have whole armies to feed. sure it happened but only when there was little choice in territories which had little infrastructure. if there was some big bunkerlike building complex somewhere then you can bet your money that it was also used to provide cover for the very needed supplies, especially for explodable ammunition.
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A wizard did it.
Not at all. However, I also don't think it would be some great industrial enterprise, like building a level 10 port or massive coastal defenses. The fact is, the "infrastructure" needed to house these supplies would presumably be built up as the supplies trickle into the supply dump from the capital. No need to "construct" an actual building and then be stuck with a useless supply dump that you no longer need when your troops move on.
Anyway, presumably that is abstracted out. The components that make up "supplies" aren't actually useful until they're shipped to the capital for packaging and sorting. Up until that point, they're nothing more than manufactured goods, which are handled automatically, like rare materials or metal.
That said, I wouldn't be against the idea of supply dumps "spawning" supplies, but it would have to be done very carefully, otherwise it would be easily exploitable. And again, it absolutely must be destroyable (in my opinion, naturally). Otherwise as you advance or change fronts, you'll have a bunch of useless supply dumps sitting around littering the landscape, and in my country, littering is a crime punishable by fine.
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It's not a bad defense. Which target is more attractive to a strategic bomber. A close one where it can knock out 1+ IC, metal, oil, etc in one pass
or a distant onewhere it can knock out 1 IC? It might take 3 trips to knock out 6 concentrated IC, but will take 6 trips to knock out 6 individual IC.
If they send less bombers, I can counter with one fighter doing regional intercept.
See my other post #173 for supply dump thoughts.
When you deploy a tank division, you can place it at the front. Why shouldn't you be able to deploy your daily supply output (or a portion of it) to the front?
I think there would still have to be a limit on the total amount of supplies from all your locations...
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Granted it would take time to fill up, but if I place many supply dumps deep in occupied China, for instance, i can withdraw all but a skeleton force of guards to the coast. A few transport planes doing suppy runs and i could fill a large number of supply dumps with a lot of supplies. It may take a year to fill but if a few supply planes (3 wings) could keep a small army (7-8divs) supplied with out any problems (as was my experience) then stocking up a 6 month supply in central china over a year shouldn't be too difficult. Then strat redeploy my main army to the boarder, and attack. It would significantly reduce supply distance, wouldn't require any infrastructure investment beyond supply dump buidling and would mean you could keep a large army supplied with it relatively cut off from main supply routes.
The 30day supplies that should be carried with a unit are the games abstraction for supply dumps and provides a realistic and fairly easy to understand (if currently a little too opaque and not made clear) system that does work on a regional level, but keeping a theater supplied is currently troublesome and unrealistic. Having supplies spawned at IC makes the most logical sense in terms of realism and gameplay, prevents gamey exploits like placing IC in Siberia as soviet union with no investment in infractructure that should be necessary, prevents surrounding capitals putting nations out of supply and allows India to help (but no completely) supply British troops.
Also supply dumps supplied from the capital would not help the current problems of logistical strikes at or around the capital decimating front line supplies. Where as under the IC system, decimating industrialized regions would effect supplies getting to the front, but unless all the supplies come from one are or all areas are decimated, not totally cutting it off, as is realistic and logical.
I'm not quite sure what your initial line about attractiveness of targets it about, however it is possible for 3 trips to destroy 6 IC and it is true it would take at least one trip to take out one IC. However, I'd argue that a strat bomber force is usually consisting of more then one wing, wings can be devided and sent over many territories to attack 1IC targets. If i have 4 wings, attacking 4 different targets and you have 1 interceptor defending, you could only really stop one bomber. IF i have 4 wings in one formation you could defend one concentrated IC province.
Also AA and mobile AA devisions can be concentrated far cheaper if IC is concentrated as well.
Now realistically speaking, you would have more then one wing of interceptors But any kind of strat campaign without air superiority or at least escorts would be suicide. And if IC is dispersed thinly, it's far more territory for your interceptors to defend so long as the attacking fighters can prevent you gaining air superiority which would and should stop wide spread strategic air campaigns.
I turned to your post where you outlined your preferred supply system but I am still confused as to exactly what you're proposing and how it differs from IC producing provinces to have their proportion of IC create supplies locally.
Is there any indication PI is looking at changing the supply model or is this thread just a discussion on the merits of pink vs blue elephants?