no, we do not need buildable supply depots

[Praetori]

Having supplies trace through HQs is a horrible idea that will exacerbate frustrations with the supply model, not ease them. It has literally no advantages to it whatsoever - it is algorithmically more complex (i.e. more likely to be buggy), it is more computationally intensive, it is more difficult to use (god help you if your corps HQ is on a different landmass), and it forces the player to use the hierarchy system extensively.

Proof or STFU as they say.
At least try to clarify what extra computations will be needed and how it's algorithmically more complex.

And I think you've misinterpreted the whole idea (forcing the player to use the hierarchy system). Not that you'd have to, but not using HQs is kinda stupid and already penalizes the player.

 

[Kuciwalker]

ehem, anyway, moving right on... I love the idea of buildable stockpiles as it would allow any nation to support a attack that would normally overstretch the logistic systems, for a short period of time, IF properly prepared.

This is called the 30-day supply reserve.

 

[Kuciwalker]

Proof or STFU as they say.
At least try to clarify what extra computations will be needed and how it's algorithmically more complex.

Extra computations: this is trivial, though probably not a significant part of the reason it's a bad idea.
Algorithmic complexity: the algorithm now has to run the supply algorithm twice. It also has to be able to gracefully handle changing the hierarchy around, so that detaching a unit from one corps and attaching it to the one next door doesn't put it out of supply for a while. To prevent such a stupid occurence, the first corps would have to know to give the second corps its supplies.

 

[DazKaz]

At the very least I would like to be able to stockpile some fuel and supplies at my airports, so I can move my air wings around as the tactical situation dictates.

It sucks when re basing to be out of supply because no one thought to leave some fuel there just in case. Then have to wait until the supply catches up before you can fight again.

 

[Kuciwalker]

This is a very poor idea, mainly because you want supplies in different locations then your IC. Why would anyone playing SU be stupid enough to deploy new IC near the German/Polish border instead of building more IC deep in the heart of Siberia and safely away from Strategic and Logistical bombardment.

Thank you for pointing out how it forces a relevant strategic choice on the player's part

Then there is a fact that adding supply depots will add depth to the game by making it imperative to capture or defend those depots. And what with IC? Will it become imperative to capture 10 IC province or do you need to capture even a single IC province? It just seems that making buildable supply depots is an elegant solution to the problem.

Why do you think supply depots solve ANY problem?

I'll repeat:
If supply depots don't spawn resources then the problem is STILL THERE (the capital is still the bottleneck).
If you add supply depots AND make IC produce supplies, then the supply depots AREN'T SOLVING THE PROBLEM because the IC-feature already solved it.
If supply depots DO spawn resources then you've just created a solution IDENTICAL to mine except that it requires adding a completely new type of province improvement, and it's less realistic.

 

[Kuciwalker]

Ok,

Supplies at IC make no real sence, cause an IC mostly only produced parts for other ICs that then produce more parts that maybe an other IC combines to a product needet at the army.

Army supplies ever run through a depot system, these depots gather the things from the "ics" and hold them in stock for units that are supplied from it ore even other depots that supplie other units and so on, similar to the HQ System in HOI3.

The cognitive dissonance here is astounding.
"supplies at IC make no real sense... supply depots gather stuff produced at the ICs and then supply it to the other units"

 

[Aubrey]

Kuciwalker - it is time to grow up. Do not continue to assume that you are smarter, more capable and more experienced than others on the forum. You would do well to let go of your childish assumption that disagreeing with you makes the other person ignorant or foolish. I used to think that way too....when I was 15.

You posit some good ideas. Whether one agrees with you or not, at least the idea is enough to get people thinking. Then you go and ruin any chance you have of being taken seriously by acting like a pompous ass.

My suggestion is that you hire someone else to argue for you, that is probably the only way you will achieve any results whatsoever.

 

[Slyguy3129]

Kuciwalker - it is time to grow up. Do not continue to assume that you are smarter, more capable and more experienced than others on the forum. You would do well to let go of your childish assumption that disagreeing with you makes the other person ignorant or foolish. I used to think that way too....when I was 15.

You posit some good ideas. Whether one agrees with you or not, at least the idea is enough to get people thinking. Then you go and ruin any chance you have of being taken seriously by acting like a pompous ass.

My suggestion is that you hire someone else to argue for you, that is probably the only way you will achieve any results whatsoever.

Defiantly second that

 

[Moltke]

My suggestion is that you hire someone else to argue for you, that is probably the only way you will achieve any results whatsoever.

He could definitely use a debate coach.

 

[unmerged(1700)]

Thank you for pointing out how it forces a relevant strategic choice on the player's part




Why do you think supply depots solve ANY problem?

I'll repeat:
If supply depots don't spawn resources then the problem is STILL THERE (the capital is still the bottleneck).
If you add supply depots AND make IC produce supplies, then the supply depots AREN'T SOLVING THE PROBLEM because the IC-feature already solved it.
If supply depots DO spawn resources then you've just created a solution IDENTICAL to mine except that it requires adding a completely new type of province improvement, and it's less realistic.

Then the simple solution is to make a slider screen where the player will allocate how much of produced supplies go to which depot.

 

[Slyguy3129]

The 30-day supply is NOT some kind of magical, off-map thing. There are no off-map supplies. If you want to check how many days supply a unit has, go into the supply mapmode, hover over the province, and check how many supplies are in the province.



1) Why should you be able to spawn all of your supplies a few provinces behind the front lines? That effectively NEGATES the purpose of the supply system!
2) That's not one of the problems with the supply system as stands. It may be one of the main reasons units go out of supply, but the supply system would be failing if that were not he case.



1) No, the supply system is not completely WAD, it has bugs left.
2) Parts of the supply system design ARE broken.

*Sigh* You never even bothered to read my post. I hate people that make me repeat myself out of their ignorance, but I will repeat myself only once more for you.

I understand that there is supposedly a "30 day reserve" in the game.

My first point was to have a indication of the said 30 day supply in the unit interface perhaps underneath the fuel and 24 hour supply. I never claimed it was magic, you are pushing my patience.

I never said that the supply spawn from behind the front lines, ignorant, I said have a supply depot deploy behind you front lines and at the entrance of the theater. Not magically spawn supplies.

Yes that is exactly the problem mainly because it sets up the supply depot so far away from the front line that it is doing more harm to itself than good by even being there.

The supply system does WAD the fact that we can not see all the information regarding the supply system nor can we control it, makes you assume that it is broken, which is why I suggested that we have the ability to prioritize units and have the ability to see the 30 day supply indicator.

Next time read my post, or do not respond to it at all. I do not appreciate at all the fact that I took the time to post an idea only to have the likes of you not even bother to read it, and dismiss it. Perhaps you would do well to stop acting as you are, it might earn you more friends and respect here.

 

[Kuciwalker]

*Sigh* You never even bothered to read my post. I hate people that make me repeat myself out of their ignorance, but I will repeat myself only once more for you.

I understand that there is supposedly a "30 day reserve" in the game.

My first point was to have a indication of the said 30 day supply in the unit interface perhaps underneath the fuel and 24 hour supply. I never claimed it was magic, you are pushing my patience.

That's not what you said, actually. Moreover, you CAN see that information very information in - guess what - the supply mapmode.

 

[Kuciwalker]

Then the simple solution is to make a slider screen where the player will allocate how much of produced supplies go to which depot.

This has absolutely nothing to do with the post it was responding to.

Try again please.

 

[Praetori]

Extra computations: this is trivial, though probably not a significant part of the reason it's a bad idea.
Algorithmic complexity: the algorithm now has to run the supply algorithm twice. It also has to be able to gracefully handle changing the hierarchy around, so that detaching a unit from one corps and attaching it to the one next door doesn't put it out of supply for a while. To prevent such a stupid occurence, the first corps would have to know to give the second corps its supplies.

Ok, first of all. All HQs already draw supplies, so adding the subordinate units "need" to the HQ would add very little complexity.

Secondly. A unit that changes HQ wouldn't simply go out of supply since the former HQ isn't hoarding the supply. There's the ordinary trickle/sponge effect on the map and the division will get it's supply from local:.

I'm not talking about re-doing the entire supply system. The sponge effect works rather good. But we as players have absolutely NO control.

My idea is simply to have the "need" for each division added to the "need" of the HQ, which in turn adds the combined "need" to it's parent HQ and so forth. With options on the HQs info panel to select the supply priority of that HQ (to get rid of the micormanagement hell that would occur if it was implemented on a divisional level).

Very little changes on the map supply are needed, and it can be combined with any future IC spawned or capital spawned supplysystem.

 

[AlanC9]

It still sounds like you're adding a whole bunch of calculations. Assuming you've built a full hierarchy, a single supply path now generates need at 5 different levels -- theater, Army group, army, corps, division.

Having said that, I have no idea how much of the processor load has to do with the supply system, so I'm not prepared to call this one unfeasible just yet.

But exactly how is this supposed to help me as a player? I'm not seeing it.

 

[derkb]

The cognitive dissonance here is astounding.
"supplies at IC make no real sense... supply depots gather stuff produced at the ICs and then supply it to the other units"

:wacko:
Hmm, you do not get it, right?

Gathering supplies at an "IC" was never the point of a logistic system at all!
One "IC" alone never made ALL supplies for the army and that never will be so.
"ICs" (the s means more then one btw.) ever send around lots of parts to other "ICs" and so on.

For a military supplie-system ever "Depots" were in charge of gathering the supplies for the forces and then over a well thought logistic chain of several other depots (big ones and smaller ones) it was brought down to the soldier it self (who was maybe the smalles of all depots in this chain, cause he held supplies for some days ore the comming attack).

Next maybe now you get the point why a "Depotsystem" for a game like HoI is a real advance.
You could stock supplies for an advance, a defenceline an operation etc. to not risk to be a sitting duck in the field.

On the other side for HoI this brings in the point of "strategic bombing" for supplie depots.
So bombing infra makes it harder to bring supplies to the front, but how about taking a whole depot out?

So the idea of the depot system whould bring some more realistic to the game and whould make the game even more interesting at all.

Bombing "ICs" does not realy stop supplies that were allready build, bombing a depot does.
Even bombing of infrastructure does not reduce supplies at all, only maybe reduces the throughput for a short time.

-
Btw. IC in HoI inflicts some more points in the game then only supplies, how about SU, why should i build up IC in the west if i know that germany could come and get it? Only to have my suppliechain up? Waste of time, so if i could say "place depot grade x" here all is fine and i could still build up ic at a point far far away like SU did at WWII, whole factories were send to the east after the war broke out.
So my IC is still safe and i can produce my goods, with a depot system i could gather supplies in the west cause i expect to be attacked there.

 

[AlanC9]

So bombing infra makes it harder to bring supplies to the front, but how about taking a whole depot out?

I can't think of any case where an entire depot on the scale we're talking about was taken out. It was a possibility at Pearl Harbor, but the Japanese preferred to bomb less important though more spectacular things.

 

[Slyguy3129]

That's not what you said, actually. Moreover, you CAN see that information very information in - guess what - the supply mapmode.

Your going to tell me what I did and didn't say? I think I would know considering that I am the one who said them. You on the other hand did not/would not/could not, understand what I said, which is your fault not mine. I can not help that you can not/will not understand what I and other people post, that is something you need to work on yourself. But I imagine you are not willing to help yourself.

No you can not, you can see whether or not the unit is getting supply or not, not the 30 day supply.

Guess what there isn't any point in trying to argue with you, because you do not know what you are talking about and you are not willing to listen to anyone.

Your one of those people, last time I'm posting in any of your threads.


EDIT: For the other people in the thread. Regarding my HQ restructure possibly helping my supply. It didn't unfortunately, so we will have to look into something else.
Somehow I do not think you will understand what I am saying, so you will claim that this isn't what I said.

 

[Alerias]

Guys the OP is trolling you all. Stop feeding.

 

[Firov]

Guys the OP is trolling you all. Stop feeding.

You DARE question the word of god! Blasphemy! Now bow down to your lord, Kuciwalker, the all knowing! And never again question the word of god, lest ye be smote!

Anyway, I obviously disagree with Kuciwalker, both because he's a jerk, and also because I believe his idea is too complicated and would add to the computational strain of an already CPU intensive game.

Instead, I believe that the throughput cap should be removed for capital provinces, and we should have the ability to designate forward supply depots. Now the depots shouldn't be "buildings", as such, like we currently have with air bases or naval bases.

Instead, it should be a simple toggle, which would set the supply demand of that province to an extremely high number. As a result, the current supply "AI" we've got would try to route supplies to that province, and stockpile them there. The current game mechanic would need to be modified a bit, so that it would release the supplies in a depot province to nearby units, despite the high supply demand of that province, and naturally, it would need to be modified so that the province wouldn't really be "consuming" the supplies, as the supply demand might indicate. Theoretically, this system would be fairly easy to implement, as it would use the current supply "AI" to route supplies, and it would use the current mechanic of supply demand to create or undo supply depots.


Oh... wait. Frak. I just disagreed with Kuciwalker. I guess I need to throw myself off of a bridge now for questioning the will of god. :rofl: