No spying on the enemy until late game?

[PeterCorless]

I just noticed that the option to spy on your enemy won't be unlocked until very late in the tech tree. This is disappointing to me because that had been one of my favorite things to do with major opponents, throughout the game. I was wondering if this could be changed to a *discount* on the tactic, but not the unlocking of it. Allow it to be unlocked earlier, but then allow people to get technologies that reduce the cost.

Also, considering that there is no major communications breakthrough during the entire period, I don't see why it is a technology, other than to make it gamey.

 

[Delta107]

I really hate these ideas(ok, not all of them). I think the fact that you have to follow a specific order is wrong. They could add prerequisites, but the specific order of taking ideas doesn't always make sense.

 

[Jake Dust]

I just noticed that the option to spy on your enemy won't be unlocked until very late in the tech tree. This is disappointing to me because that had been one of my favorite things to do with major opponents, throughout the game. I was wondering if this could be changed to a *discount* on the tactic, but not the unlocking of it. Allow it to be unlocked earlier, but then allow people to get technologies that reduce the cost.

Also, considering that there is no major communications breakthrough during the entire period, I don't see why it is a technology, other than to make it gamey.

According to the DDs, you should have eight idea groups by the end of the game, which means if you want to, you will get all espionage ideas in the first 1/8 of the game, which isn't late at all.

 

[arcain]

I guess, this is the point of the whole system: if you really want to, you can become a spy-master quite quickly. You just have to focus and spend your power-points wisely - the critical question therefor is more a question of balancing and about the advantages/disadvantage of the idea-trees. Guess we will see a lot of patches with fine-tuning. Overall I like the system very much; it has a lot of potential to rope you into the game.

 

[unmerged(271387)]

I don't like how you have to follow certain paths.Having a system like EU3 but where ideas require more than just technology prequisites would be better.

 

[PeterCorless]

Okay... so it's the seventh idea in the Espionage idea group. That takes Admin power. How many decades are we talking about investing before anyone can use this option? I'm thinking that, considering all the other uses for Admin power, it will take at least a century (or more) before anyone develops this technology, and that's if they do it aggressively.

I suppose the advantage of this option vs. EUIII is that as long as you park your diplomat in the enemy capital you can do this. There's no cost to it. It would suck up the use of a diplomat, which is not likely going to be something you can afford until later in the game. Hrm...

Hrm...

I can't see prioritizing it in the early game very much vs. other necessities. But the good news is that small countries could go this route, considering that they would not be spending more money than they have in their annual budgets to park a diplomat to see what the big boys are up to.

Mrf.

 

[turnad]

Quill18 had nearly half of a diplomatic idea line before a decade was up. that was while constantly enacting diplomatic actions.

 

[Belissarius]

Okay... so it's the seventh idea in the Espionage idea group. That takes Admin power. How many decades are we talking about investing before anyone can use this option? I'm thinking that, considering all the other uses for Admin power, it will take at least a century (or more) before anyone develops this technology, and that's if they do it aggressively.

I suppose the advantage of this option vs. EUIII is that as long as you park your diplomat in the enemy capital you can do this. There's no cost to it. It would suck up the use of a diplomat, which is not likely going to be something you can afford until later in the game. Hrm...

Hrm...

I can't see prioritizing it in the early game very much vs. other necessities. But the good news is that small countries could go this route, considering that they would not be spending more money than they have in their annual budgets to park a diplomat to see what the big boys are up to.

Mrf.

The whole POINT of the system is to make choices mean something. You CAN quite quickly well before a century get 7 national ideas. But its not without sacrifice. Which is the whole bloody point of the current system.

People are starting to see the inherit limitations of the system which are by design, when you do anything in EU4 that costs monarch points you are giving up something else. So why would paradox change the system so you could do x (in this case espionage), without feeling like you are giving up something? In quills game we saw how costly his use of Monarch points were in that he was well behind in tech BUT he was ahead in coring and acquisition of provinces. Sure England was huge so early in the game but she was weak in NIs and weak in Technology. That was a choice Quill made.

The last thing I want to see is the diluting of the hard choices monarch points require us to make.

 

[gibbel]

You need 2100 admin points to unlock all 7 idea. Assuming you are playing a nation that does not get a monarch point penalty (western, eastern, ottoman or muslim tech group), an avarage king (3 admin) and a lvl 1 advisor you get 7 points per month, 84 point per year. So it would take you 25 years to unlock the seven ideas if you don't spend admin points on anything else. That isn't too long in my opinion. Ideally it would take you only 14.58 years to get all those points (6 admin monarch, lvl 3 advisor) which is rather quick.

 

[SomethingSharp]

Regarding Infiltrate Administration itself, I'm not sure if it's really a bad thing at all that it's locked until the end of the espionage line. Sure I took advantage of it to make sure France/Ottomans couldn't sneak a deathstack onto me, but how realistic is it really to be able to instantly see all troop movements in your enemy's territory? It probably wasn't until the advent of satellites that we could reliably do that in real life - with 15th century communications I actually think it's terribly overpowered. It also made the fog totally irrelevant as long as you had enough spies + money and your opponent didn't have Vetting. Without being able to see enemy movements, you actually have to be a little more careful and not just carpet siege. And although I don't play multiplayer, I can imagine how IA sort of breaks the game, but feel free to correct me if you play MP and I'm wrong.

 

[Te. Kenzo]

I like the system.

 

[ikki]

oh yeah.. and you can work on 3 idea groups at the same time.. in theory. In practice you need to unlock them first

http://eu4wiki.com/Buildings
nice to see it a bit filled out. Now that +0,5 papal influence.. ya know, when you have 200 cathedrals, thats +100 papal influence? (oh yes, most catholic emperor, how may the church further thy glory?)

 

[PeterCorless]

You need 2100 admin points to unlock all 7 idea. Assuming you are playing a nation that does not get a monarch point penalty (western, eastern, ottoman or muslim tech group), an avarage king (3 admin) and a lvl 1 advisor you get 7 points per month, 84 point per year. So it would take you 25 years to unlock the seven ideas if you don't spend admin points on anything else. That isn't too long in my opinion. Ideally it would take you only 14.58 years to get all those points (6 admin monarch, lvl 3 advisor) which is rather quick.

Thanks! That's exactly the sort of calculation I was looking for! Okay... not too shabby.

 

[unmerged(275616)]

It seems like one could choose to completely develop one branch very early in the game. Poland could spend all of their military points to get aristocratic ideas early. Burgundy could spend all of their points to get administrative ideas early.

 

[Chamboozer]

I like that you have to put some investment in before you can lift the fog of war, it was an overpowered ability in EUIII to be able to see the entire country of the enemy.